The talk in this town and certainly on this blog, has been that there is no way that Savoy could create their own transit system. It would cost too much. It would mean a tax hike. Most critics of the village, and of the Southwest Champaign group, have ridiculed any transit solutions that don’t include the CUMTD. Of course, either of these districts could easily say that they don’t want to provide any service.
Now comes Rantoul. They are looking at creating a transit system in their community and they’re turning for ideas to the City of Pekin. According to the News-Gazette article today, the Pekin transit system is funded by a combination of federal and state grants and rider fares. No property taxes. None.
The way this can be done is simple. You tailor your transit system to meet your needs. You don’t run unnecessary lines, or unnecessary services to areas that don’t want them. From the sound of it, Rantoul likes the Pekin setup and now it will be up to the village to figure out a way to obtain the funding.
What it shows though is that every transit system doesn’t have to have the lofty goal of being the “Best Transit system in the country.” It might be good enough to give your residents what they want.
I'm still mad at Savoy for calling the police on me when my car broke down and I had to leave it overnight.
Also, the houses out there look like crap.
But hey, that's probably the bitterness speaking...:)
Wha? ILIC described why Rantoul and Savoy are different entities. What were you looking for, a dissertation?
No offense, but Savoy is pretty stupid for not latching on to the MTD issue. You'll have your pride, an overpriced and inefficient transit system, and crappy schools.
Be my guest.
Savoy sounds pretty smart and Champaign sounds a bit jealous they don't have such fiscally conservative leadership.
Skinny Puppy...wasn't that a band?
fiscally conservative leadership?
Leading driver after driver to Garden Hills to drop off their kids. Leading Savoy into the 21st century with high paying, high tech, low impact jobs. Leading Savoy in education, parks and recreation, library and other city services. Leading Savoy to being even more than nothng more than a bedroom community, and when it does need services, has no tax base other than homeowner property tax ( oh, and a Wal-Mart, a movie theater, and a car dealership. And a Sonic.)
Leading into the future.
Smart.
Nice post, Mark, and I wish Rantoul well. They deserve the opportunity to explore mass transit options.
Savoy, however, lead by Dykstra, and by extension, Tapley, is different. Rantoul has its own schools, its own police, and its own library. Savoy has chosen to cherry pick its services, and therefore its taxes, from Champaign, while literally being on the border.
Savoy picked a fight over paying their fair share of MTD taxes, taxes that actually would be rather minor. Now that the school district is attempting to float a major bond, the chickens are coming home to roost.
Rantoul wasn't asked to "join the team", it is its own team, an away game for us here in C-U.
Savoy has been asked to join us, to help in a small way to share the burden, and Savoy has rejected us.
Now, Savoy will be rejected in the school building issue. Because of this, primarily by Dykstra and Tapley, there is tremendous resentment from Champaign about Savoy, resentment which will last for years and years to come.
Every morning, when a Savoy parent has to leave his or her house extra early to drive his or her child all the way to Garden Hills, I hope they think of this. Cooperation, and a very few bucks, would have gone a long way. Now Savoy drivers can go a long way.
What goes around, comes around.
"I live in Champaign" did a fantastic job of attacking Savoy.
If only he/she could have shared his/her feelings about the topic at hand, instead of looking for yet another excuse to attack Savoy, and comment about everything else except Rantoul Mass Transit.
Incredible.
Agreed. That's the way it should be.
The article on Rantoul's plans for an MTD with no property tax kind of destroyed CUMTD's claim that the creation of the Champaign South West Mass Transit District (CSWMTD) would lead to double taxation.
>Also, the houses out there look like crap.
What a classist thing to say. Are you a racist, too Xian?
Probably.
Hey Xian -
It's not just Savoy. Didn't you notice that most houses in this area look like crap? That's because you're in the middle of nowhere. People here make crap. Why? Because smart people self-select the hell out of here... Only the dumb ones are left behind. Dumb people buy crappy houses.
End of story.
Would all of the whiners from Champaign be satisfied if Champaign annexed everything known as Savoy?
That way the people of the area formerly known as Savoy could have higher taxes (yes, higher taxes), big government, a higher crime rate, and all of those so-called "advantages" of being a part of Champaign.
And that would be the day that Re/Max would be putting a sign in my front yard.
Oh yes, but when that happened, we'd still be a part of the *CHAMPAIGN* (unit four) SCHOOL SYSTEM. (*gasp!!!*)
And if the voters of Unit 4 (not the "Champaign" School District) want to vote down the referendum simply to spite Savoy.... well, the residents of Champaign have much, much more to lose when that referendum fails... so go right ahead and vote the sucker down. That's right, just go ahead and vote it down.
Problem is, the handful of people on this board who want to see it fail... only to spite Savoy... can't vote it down by themseleves. But they haven't figured that out yet...
xian... you should stay out of Savoy (with its crappy houses) and ride the MTD if your car is unreliable. But I don't want to sound bitter, like you... right?
Mark,
You forgot to mention this in your list of things a sensible transit authority should not do:
"run buses every 5 minutes for students who could easily walk, using state and federal money which is not really intended for shuttling students around the campus of a state university"
Random Prediction: Next pedestrian accident in C-U will be on North Lincoln Avenue where packs of UI students cross between east side of Lincoln (from northbound MTD bus) to University Commons in an area with no crosswalk or signal. SPLAT!
Golly
I am getting a kick out of suggestions that somehow the failure of Savoy to acquiesce to the MTD's annexation plans will somehow doom the school referendum. Certainly, there are possibly a few people who will grind their axes over Savoy's position. But the vast majority of Champaign residents don't give a hoot about Savoy and the MTD battle. If anything, they'll support Savoy's right to not be in the MTD. If the school referendum goes down it will be for overreaching much more than for giving the residents of Unit 4 who reside in Savoy a school that they obviously deserve.
By the way, Savoy residents are not the only people in Unit 4 who are not in the City of Champaign. Over 20% of the voters in Unit 4 live outside of the City of Champaign.
the residents of Champaign have much, much more to lose when that referendum fails”¦ so go right ahead and vote the sucker down. That's right, just go ahead and vote it down.
Like paying a lot more money in taxes for a broken system?
Problem is, the handful of people on this board who want to see it fail”¦ only to spite Savoy”¦ can't vote it down by themseleves. But they haven't figured that out yet”¦
right. Savoy has so much political power, it can't fail!
How about the referendum is "pieced out"? One vote on air conditioning, one vote on a new high school, one vote on expansion of programs, one vote on Savoy getting a school? And we all get to vote on each issue. Think you'll get your Richard Nixon Elementary School? I doubt it.
You forget, we are big, you are small. We are powerful, you are not. Democracy rules! Or doesn't it?
The Unit 4 system is broken? Well, maybe Savoy should pull out and join up with Unit 7 after all. That would definitely thrill a few people around here. Instead of building new schools and hiring more people, Unit 4 would be closing buildings and laying off teachers, administrators, and other support staff.
See how good it would be for Unit 4 to be rid of Savoy? Unit 7 (Tolono) just went through a phase of building new schools (actually, they're adding on new space yet again), and their oldest building (the High School) was built in the late 50's. Let's see... and how old is the Central High School Building?
The referendum can't be pieced out. It is already set to be put on the ballot as a $65 million package. That was finalized a week ago, as was required. And to your dismay, it was done that way on purpose...
But I didn't have to remind you of that insignificant little detail, right? Sorry to ruin the basis of your lame counterpoint.
As I said before, all of you whiners can just go ahead and try your best to vote the sucker down.
There HAS to be a school built north of University Avenue sometime, right? Wasn't it you ("I live in Champaign", 1/24 - 4:28pm) that was made a thinly veiled racial comment about that north side school in a separate topic? That's you, right?
Shame on you.
Without Champaign, Savoy wouldn't exist. Duh.
"Like paying a lot more money in taxes for a broken system?"
So you don't agree with paying more taxes for a system that doesn't work well?
Good, maybe that's what Savoy was thinking when they stood up to the over-reaching MTD and said they will decide when to ask for (empty) buses.
Mark's post highlights the issue that property taxes are usually not needed to pay for efficient bus service. Good luck to Rantoul as they find a cost effective solution. But I suggest Rantoul leaders keep a tight grip on their wallets when they meet CU-MTD.
Back to Rantoul--
If they are going to embrace some sort of mass transit, they are going to HAVE to do it without *any* sort of property tax subsidy.... Have you seen their current property tax rate? (yikes!)
Friedman seems to be a trolley buff:
http://www-faculty.cs.uiuc.edu/~friedman/champaign-urbana/Contents.htm
Go figure.
You make it sound like it's somehow magically free. Whether that money is federal or state or whatnot, it still comes from us. And a small MTD is still going to need all the same basic facilities unless they contract with the large MTD to provide them. The simple fact is, running a small MTD costs more per rider mile than running a large MTD. The idea of multiple MTDs in the same county is just plain dumb. Everybody loses except those who aspire to be MTD board members.
"If they are going to embrace some sort of mass transit, they are going to HAVE to do it without *any* sort of property tax subsidy”¦. Have you seen their current property tax rate? (yikes!)"
That's their plan, I think. And contrary to what many people believe, there are a number of mass transit districts throughout Illinois that operate without any property tax revenue. An MTD doesn't automatically mean increased property taxes, because there are so many other available funding sources.
Prairie Biker,
Yes, but running NO SERVICE costs much less per whatever unit you choose than running service. If people who don't want to spend money on transit band together and form a transportationless transit district, they save...
If Little Bill was clever, he'd promptly eliminate all MTD property taxes. All of his opposition would simultaneously and miraculously disappear.
I suspect he'd rather perserverate, though.
Toeppen is a trolley fan, too. See www.illinioisterminal.com. Or the pictures at his website www.toeppen.com.
Why would one trolley nut love MTD and another hate MTD?
[i]>Also, the houses out there look like crap.
What a classist thing to say. Are you a racist, too Xian?
Probably. [/i]
Jeez, who let the guy with no social skills into the party? Those neo-cons--always playing the race card. Your people must have suffered a lot of injustice to have such a chip on your shoulder... :)
Some of my best friends are rich people, I even have some over to my house. I just wouldn't let one marry my daughter...
Not Xian! I'm glad you finally escaped from bizarro world--just don't approach, if "not xian" and "xian" meet, a disaster beyond our imagination would occur (and I have a pretty good imagination).
On the trolley issue, I don't know enough about it. But it seems like a weirdo pet project that is a collosal waste of money and an excuse for city reps and their friends to take European vacations. National Lampoon should make a movie about it.
Good point to make Scott.
It also (the Pekin Transit approach) blows the theory that we all must pay for transit whether we use it or not in order for the whole system to exist.
BTW, the new "shuttle" to Urbana Walmart began today. 30 minute service, 7 days a week, 6 a.m. to 11 p.m.
MTD likes to claim that they are all about promoting density. I'm not sure I buy that. Instead, I think they may be more about promoting transit-benefitting density.
For instances:
1) Students used to live as close to the Quad as possible in order to minimize walk time. This made distant apartments unattractive. Enter MTD with free service every 12 seconds. Suddenly, distant apartments are viable. Distant property owners benefitted, close-in property owners faced viable new competition. What did transit do for us here? Transit created a demand for itself, but are the taxpayers of Champaign-Urbana better off?
2) Students used to shop on campus. There were clothing stores (ie Redwood & Ross, Schumachers, etc.), there was a grocery store (Eisner/Jewel), and so on. Along comes MTD with free service every 12 seconds. Suddenly, students are shopping at Meijer and other distant stores. Campustown degenerates into a theme park of crappy restaurants, because that's the only thing that seems to survive when students have free unlimited transportation to distant commercial zones. Again, transit creates a demand for itself, but are the taxpayers of Champaign-Urbana better off?
and so forth.
What should we think of CUMTD running frequent service to Wal-Mart? Valuable service for the residents of Champaign-Urbana? Or just another instance of MTD creating a niche for itself which would be fine if left vacant?
Talk amongst yourselves...
Oh, and back to the thesis...Does running service to a distant Big Box store really promote density? Or does it lead to decreasing CBD density, by facilitating transportation to the edge, where density is lowest????
Good points Golly. I've always been curious why the urban planner types who like to keep the center core viable and are opposed to urban sprawl support the wider and wider expansion of MTD service.
The better to swallow you, of course.
Gollee, i love pandering to anti-MTD people, scaring them too, eh Scott and Joan?
Not sure I folllow your logic there BBW.
That's because Big Bad Wolf is Ralph Cramden and he has no logic. Just nastiness and bomb throwing.
another anonymous is run4cvrlib aka jim, and is well known as not too bright
I applaud the City of Rantoul for looking at how most MTD's are funded, namely without property tax dollars. Being in the CU MTD, I am ashamed that we allowed the "Best Little Transit Sytem" become the "Beastly Consumptive Transit Sytem" using our property tax dollars. I will support anyone who does not want to get in this "BLACK HOLE" with the CU MTD "BEAST". Savoy, SW Champaign, Rantoul, Mahomet, St. Joseph, Tolono, etc.
The density issue is another argument that Bill Volk and I have had. I asked him the same question, and the answer I got, of course, is I obviously am a bad person, not to support people who don't own cars. You can't decrease density if you continue to expand this service. Has anyone looked at the numbers that the MTD uses to justify its existence? I understand that they count as a rider every person who gets on, even if its the same student who rides a block at a time. No wonder they can claim that they have millions of riders.
Everybody who hates the MTD please get in line A, everybody who loves the MTD please get in line B, everybody who really doesn't care because so much else is going on in their lives and in the world, get in line C.
Which line do you suppose is longest, and which is shortest?
That's funny, everybody is in line A and line C. Wait, who is that little bald guy in line B? Oh, it's Volk.
Don't know why Rantoool needs transit - y'all can shoot a spit wad from one corner of Rantoul to the other corner using a regular old drinking straw.