Two news items out of Mahomet caught my eye yesterday.
- The Mahomet village board expressed its opposition to a number of the proposed county zoning changes. (It was in the News-Gazette, but not online that I see.) Good to see this zoning stuff is being noticed by someone.
- Mahomet schools will be honoring local veterans around Veterans Day. They have sent out open invitations, and requested that visitors wear or bring uniforms or other indications of their branch of service. In light of the controversy about a soldier talking to kids in Champaign schools, I was very pleased to see this.
Yes, Virginia, Mahomet is a Republican stronghold.
I'm on the Veteran's Day committee and we have dozens of veterans in every age-group. Most wear all or a part of their uniform. Students sing a medley of songs from each military branch (Army, Navy, Marines, etc.). The vets then stand when their branch is sung. It's an amazing time of respect and gratitude.
A Korean War veteran, Tom Harpst, from Mahomet usually comes to my class afterward and tells interesting stories of his experiences. Kids love it.
It is sad that CU schools won't honor Vets. Or even allow the military to be in schools to be a model as someone who serves thier country.
thanks for the details Joan
Students sing a medley of songs from each military branch (Army, Navy, Marines, etc.).
One word: Yeesh.
From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli.......
I may go and help sing along :-)
At least there's one community in Champaign County that has respect for servicemembers...
...maybe Mahomet should have put a referendum on their ballot: "Should Mahomet secede from Champaign County so as to further disassociate itself from the laughingstock that is CU?"
Yes, C/U is definitely the laughinstock here. Have children sing the "In the Air Force" chorus while wildly cheering a a figher pilot is normal behavior. :roll:
RSW - bring your copy of "Green Berets" or for the kids. Maybe you can hold a Corrective History Seminar to inform these young minds about what really went on in 'Nam. Just remember: if the Duke said that's the way it was ...
... then that's the way it was. :)
This is for "just call me anonymous". I hope he gets one of these tunes stuck in his mind the whole day and finds himself humming along. And maybe remind himself to thank a veteran for his/her service. Yeesh.
Air Force
"Off we go, into the wild blue yonder..."
Army
"Over hill, over dale, we have hit the dusty trail..."
Marine's
"From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli..."
Navy
"Anchors aweigh, my boys, anchors away..."
Hey Joan: If you'd like to have a genuine D-Day Veteran, I'll be glad to talk to your kids. Ralph Langenheim
JCM"A":
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that "normal" behaivior was for a community to spend weeks vilifying a decorated combat vet in the local paper for talking to school kids about values like loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, courage...
Maybe your definition of "normal" and my definition of "respect" aren't in the same ballpark...
Joan can confirm this for us JCMA, but I also have heard they say the "Pledge of Allegiance" every day too.
crazy, I know.....
On a different note, I can't believe some of the village board members in Mahomet are concerned that the county zoning changes will make it tougher to build rural subdivisions. Any halfway smart board member would realize that the village needs to annex and control new subdivisions, both to ensure the subdivision is built to village standards and for the tax benefits. Choules sounded like a complete idiot making the case for rural subdivisions!
Maybe the village board members have greater respect for private property rights than the current county board.
It doesn't seem that too many others do, however, as I have not heard much about this issue.
It appears that there were very few Mahomet representatives involved in the Big, Small, All efforts from the documents produced.
Despite the current growth east of Mahomet along the US 150, in the 1980's the village had to be forced to annex its subdivisions in that direction. The Champaign County Board at the time forced the issue with the village as Mahomet was perfectly willing to control the subdivisions from afar without annexation.
Now the village board appears to understand that their subdivisions are not a liability but an asset. A welcome change for the community unless the "Big, Small, All" is taken seriously and guides implementation.
Most of the county is oblivious to the assault on property rights that is fast coming to an end, I HOPE! The county board is to vote on this issue Nov. 21st. The big, small , all campaign took a hit on their attempt to impose farmland preservation on the land owners. The goal was to limit total conversion of prime farm land to less than ten thousand acres over twenty three years. The problem for them is that history shows the cities of C U have gobbled up the vast majority of the landscape, not the individual farmers through out the county. Yet, the restricitions they wish to apply to the individuals are rather extreme and highly restrictive which leads to the ultimate devaluation of their properties. This is an "unconstitutional attack on property rights!" The victory Wed. morn was that the number one issue of Big, Small , All that people disagreed with was concerning this item. Instead of giving BSA a credible platform to promote this agenda it backfired and gives us a credible reason to stop it from ever coming up again. Thank You BSA
And people wonder while they flee the CU school district? Ever walk down the halls or visit these county schools......quiet and disciplined! Contrast with the HIP HOP CU districts...disgusting.
John -- walk the walk if you're going to talk the talk. I challenge you to "walk down the halls" of Barkstall school (in Champaign, by the way), any time, any day, and see what you find. My daughter attends school there, and my wife and I love it (my wife also happens to be a veteran teacher herself). The school is beautiful, the kids are well-behaved, and ... shock of shocks... many of the kids have black skin!!! Imagine that.
Barkstall is a good school, my child went there when Sandy Powell was still there and made that school what it was along with the parents and teachers. In the Middle and High Schools what is needed is what Barkstall had or has and that's everyone caring and listening to one another. All cultures are appreciated with respect. It takes the efforts of the entire community to make a school good, until that happens, people like John will continue to flight.
But I guess my thing is, where's John's respect for this Hip Hop that he finds so disgusting. I'm not saying tolerate bad behavior, but I am saying grasp thtat this is a culture to some african-americans and some of the caucasian population. There is some hip hop that is of a christian nature that is good and not advocating degradation to women, killing, gang stuff, etc.
I'm glad that the county "Stepford Children" Schools are to your liking. Oh just to let you know, just because it's quiet, doesn't mean everything's okay in quiet mostly caucasian america. Have you listened to some of the music that's out in the pop, rock and alternative community? How's everything there?
Jay, thank you for letting me know that Barkstall is still a good, well-behaved school. Oh and by the way John, I'm a black woman who has a child who attends Jefferson and is on the honor roll and in basketball. And she is well behaved.
Oh and Joan, congrats on your vets day ceremony! I think some of my cadets will be there helping you guys out.
Just call me, I think you're missing cell's point. It ain't about singing songs about the military but it is about giving them a role model. No, I'm not saying they should join the military or anything. But what I am saying is that most, not all, of the people I've worked with in Army ROTC are good people and respectable. Maybe having leaders from all walks of life into the schools, of all races, being examples and modeling good behavior, things might change.
**And people wonder while they flee the CU school district? Ever walk down the halls or visit these county schools”¦”¦quiet and disciplined! Contrast with the HIP HOP CU districts”¦disgusting.**
This is exactly why I laughed at the headline of this thread -- there is no "color" in Mahomet. In my experience, Mahomet schools are quite intolerant and unwelcoming to anyone that is not white. John's racist comment confirms my point. How can a district be "HIP HOP"??? Your comments are disgusting.
Your comments are incorrect, "teacherlove". While Mahomet has a low minority population, as most small towns do, it is very welcoming to them. The minority students we have in school are treated as equals, as they should. You are unfair and plain wrong and you are prejudice in your own right.
ROTCgirl, the singing is only a small part of the program. But I'd like to talk to you about any ideas you have!
john, jay, jefferson mom, teacherlove:
Wow. The sheer ignorance and blatant prejudice being expressed by both sides here is ridiculous.
First, Mahomet. Joan is right, I agree 100%, and I won't bother wasting your time with anecdotal evidence. To expand, MS also has a long history of state and national recognition for both academics and extra-curriculars. I'm biased, since I went to grades 1-12 there, but check it out for yourself. How many other school districts in Champaign County can claim the recognition that Mahomet has gotten and continues to receive in so many areas?
http://www.ms.k12.il.us/
Now, the rest: multiculturalism is a good thing, and Mahomet would be helped by being more diverse: that's something that the CU schools have on Mahomet. However, multiculturalism is not the primary mission, nor is it the most important purpose of a school. Academic education is most important, followed equally by activities like music, sports, community involvement and volunteer work.
Learning how to work and play well with others should expand beyond the color of our skin to our personalities - two people of different races may have similar personalities and work well together, but if two people of vastly different personalities can learn to work well together, regardless of skin color, that's a real achievement.
To pass judgement on Mahomet as being of poorer quality and racist simply because it's "not CU" is just as prejudiced as claiming that Barkstall and Jefferson are "Hip-Hop" and therefore worthless.
Side note: if Joan is who I think she is, I had her for 5th grade math (the first grade we split out classes for math and one other subject) way back in the day. There's more than one Joan in the district, but I know she's still there.
Just to clarify: I personally have a lot of respect for the idea of having veterans in the classroom, just as I have a lot of respect for having Holocaust survivors, anti-war protestors, politicians, etc. in the classroom.
The problem comes when having a vet in veers off from history and into patriotic engineering, which is what I think the song singing is doing. It's pretty over-the-top. And yes, the Pledge is now forced down student's throats on a daily basis (thanks irrational 9/11 patriotism!) - but students do not *have* to say the Pledge. Last I checked it was the student's right to sit it out on a daily basis.
Now you all might not like that, but we call it freedom of expression. It's kind of fundamental.
Finally, one wonders the reaction this board would have if Champaign Central brought in some anti-war protestors who led the kids in a rendition of Edwin Starr's "War (What is it Good For?)"? I assume "greenguy" and the rest would pop a gasket, boiling over with indignation.
When you glorify service in the military you glorify war. The Air Force Pilot is "cool" because he flies an F-16. What is that F-16 designed do, exactly? What is a marine designed to do? What is the military designed to do? The answer might be "protect our freedom" but in reality the answer is "kill". I have children, and I would not want them exposed to that kind of message at school.
Let the vet explain the hardships of being in the service, the sacrifices it takes to protect the country, the horrors of combat. But forcing young, impressionable children to sing-a-long with "Halls of Montezuma" is just so over-the-top it actually makes me glad my kids will go to a school where the teachers don't have to explain that minority kids are "treated as equals".
First, there's nothing wrong with a healthy love for one's country. I despise the word "patriotism," but call it what you want.
Second, you have zero clue what I would think about a war protester in the classroom. Just as you don't think a soldier should veer off of "values" when talking to kids and into talking about war itself, I don't think a protester shoud veer off from talking about the war into lambasting soldiers. But they have the right to. And I have the right to complain about it. It's kind of fundiamental.
I won't even jump into a discussion of the difference between Justice of War and Justice in War, because you're clearly not even trying to see a distinction, in support of your own political end.
Finally, at what point did anyone said that MS kids have to have minorities and equality explained to them? Again, assumptions, to push your political agenda - and this time MS students are the punchline instead of soldiers.
What a prejudiced individual you are...the irony is deafening.
I have worked with kids at both Mahomet and Centennial. There is a world of difference and a very basic distinction between the two. The kids at Centennial were out of control in the classroom environment I witnessed. The trip through the hallway between classes was a cultural shock to me in comparison to my high school days. The kids at Mahomet showed the respect and control I grew up with (race had little to do with my upbringing as my school was highly integrated). What I experienced had everything to do with the class of the individual (or lack there of) and this I blame on the parents. The behavior I witnessed at Centennial was that of street tough, Mahomet would'nt have a chance in this environment. The kids at Mahomet were much more focused on education and Centenial would be challenged on this level, student for student, again I put the responsibility on the parents. It truelly is a cultural issue in many ways, which does have race and heritage issue at play, low income being the common thread. Parents who are challenged raise challenged children. When will the cycle end. That is truelly the issue our society faces on many issues today, programs will not function if the foundation is weak, our foundation (the family) is weak.
Racktivist - excellent post. Yes indeed, it all comes down to parents. The schools cannot help every kid overcome lousy parents, yet the schools frequently shoulder all the blame.
I guess I've been reading too many police reports on the CU DISTRICT. Bullets in the school yard, fights, school rules that are constantly ignored and not enforced, etc. If you want to play the race card, that's your take. Smartest move my neightbor made was to move out of a district that insists on cramming diversity down the parents throats and refusing to remove the trouble makers.
I put the responsibility on the parents. It truelly is a cultural issue in many ways, which does have race and heritage issue at play, low income being the common thread. Parents who are challenged raise challenged children.
Very well said! The fact is that we have uninvolved, distracted and/or incapable parents who are failing to raise their kids. Ending that cycle requires that we find ways to both compel and enable them to do their jobs as parents. In the meantime, we have to either give the schools the resources to deal with the consequently uncivilized kids, or expect schools to be unsafe and unproductive. Allowing "out of control" behavior in the classroom is something the administrators need to answer for. If they do not have the options and resources that they need to deal with these kids, they need to take their case to the board and the public and the legislature.
"John"--kids of all ages and colors react to how much respect they receive, what expectations are placed on them, and what they're allowed to get away with. I've seen inner-city schools that are virtual war zones. I've seen inner-city schools where the kids call the teachers "Sir" and "Ma'am." Lack of oversight and lack of discipline has nothing to do with "diversity" or "hip hop." If the discipline problems in the Champaign schools are as bad as you say they are, we need better administrators, not whiter kids.
It's interesting that the out of control behavior that was apparently witnessed at Centennial (of all places) is so easily denounced as a fundamental parenting problem. The kids are out of control. It's a problem. It's the parent's problem.
What to say about Mahoment-Seymour? I assume none of those kids do drugs or drink on the weekends? None have pre-marital sex? No major blow-out house parties on the weekend? No acid? No ecstasy? No coke?
Please. Those kids are just like kids everywhere else. They're going to get into trouble, but they are also going to quickly get out of trouble because ... hey! ... they're white, and that's what white kids do.
The difference is the black kids who are so "out of control" don't know how to BS the teachers, parents, counselors, and cops as well as the black kids do. A cop rolls up on a homie on the north end of Champaign and he's gonna run, whether he's done something wrong, or not. A cop rolls up on a white kid out in Mahomet (right) and he's going to BS his way out of it. It's that simple.
Looks can be deceiving. Don't judge those "out of control" black kids so quick. Some of them are the smartest kids in the school. And don't be so quick to dump praise on Mahomet. Those kids are into it up to their necks.
Maybe you should ask the parents out in Mahomet why their kids party on the weekends? Or is that "roll your eyes" behavior, "just growing up"?
Then what is it for the black kids? Some sort of cultural problem that needs immediate correction, in the form of condemnation of the parent?
Fantastic.
If all of you arm chair politicians don't like the system, than run for office and fix it. Some of you apparently watch to much T.V. Some of you are critical of kids and the schools and you don't yourself have any kids or your kids are 40 years old.
I have kids that went to Robeson (Unit 4) and now go to Mahomet Schools. And yes, there is a difference.
There is also big difference in allowing a serviceman in schools vs. supporting an anti-war protester. A government funded school should be supporting the government and the military. Again, if you don't like it, then VOTE to change it. In the mean time, don't use kids as a tool for your complaints of governmental policies.
JCM"A":
Wow, are you racist.
That doesn't even deserve a response.
Yes, sorry, I forgot that pointing out the social behavior of white suburban kids is racist. Of course bemoaning the social behavior of black "urban" kids is perfect acceptable because ... well ... they're black?
Thanks for reminding me. Let's keep the ever-effective white-kid veil of BS in place. You're right! They are all fantastic children who would never lie to their parents (or teachers!), never drink on the weekends, and never, ever, do drugs or have sex.
They're too busy being "in control". :roll:
No, you're racist because you're making excessively broad generalizations about both races to suit your needs.
You're racist because of the "ever-effective white-kid veil of BS in place" comment.
No one on this board claimed that any kids from any school are saints. But most people here were noting that children from Mahomet have a tendency, while in school, to have more respect for themselves, the administrators, and the process than do children from Centennial. That, too, is a generalization, but there's a difference between painting "white kids" and "black kids" with the brush that you do, and actually having been inside these two particular schools and noticing a drastically different demeanor in the air from one school to the next.
So lose the sarcasm and go blow your politically-motivated prejudical smoke up someone else's behind.
Wow, and I thought racism was strickly applied to white thought? Hmmmm.....well said GREEN GUY, I challenge anyone to walk the halls of MAHOMET, ST. JOE, and CENTENNIAL and tell me which appears to be more " disciplined." Whatever the reason you want to assign or excuse you want to use....it's hard to deny what we all know. I can't find a lot of people enamored with the CU schools, it seems to be the crux of an unusually high amount of criticism.
My earlier response had nothing to do with extra curricular activities, such as sex, drugs and other r and r activities. All Kids are subject to our society's ills. How they hide it is up to them. Sure some kids are very good at it while others are idiots. There are many who pursue illegal activities and justify there behavior, I would love to TP a neighbors house so bad you can't imagine, but I won't. My son was busted in Mahomet on two occasions, one with the law and one by white trash and two brothers from Rantoul who outnumbered and outweighed him three to one. Why? He defended a girl who needed it. Why is this relative? It is an example of our world through our eyes. ( My best friend is black, we are as tight as any hetrosexual buddies. No slam on gays here by the way, just clarifying. ) The common thread with these thugs was there stupidity and that was learned behavior ( they were caught and went through the legal system for assault and battery, all had experience with the system by the way). Chalk up another experience to my worlds view and multiply this times many others experiences and one can start to see a pattern, stupidity crosses all races and genders. By the way I did give my son advice to lessen the chances of him getting in trouble in the future. Frankly he is growing out of the "stupidity of youth" age and sliding into an "acceptable young man to be proud of" age. Thank GOD
On another note, RACE has nothing to do with intelligence! Education and application are what distinguish a person over time. Knowledge is the first step, usually acquired in a school setting in our society. If you have knowledgable caring parents your chances are much better you will learn that you have to work for an education, it is not free, it is not automatic, that is why it is so valuable.
WHAT A BEAUTIFUL SUN DAY!
"Side note: if Joan is who I think she is, I had her for 5th grade math..."
Greenguy, That would be Joan Jordan, the 5th grade "high" math teacher.
wow - pretty good activity for a weekend.
A couple comments:
1. As one poster said, exposure to cultural diversity is not the primary mission of a school. Teach my kid math, English, science, history. Do not undermine the teaching I do at home - demand respect and accountability. Allow my kid to focus on learning at school, and not have to worry about violence in the classroom. I would think parents of any color would want the same.
2. JCMA, if you can't see the difference between a patriotic assembly to honor veterans and having an anti-war protest on school grounds, well...........I don't know what to say.
Cultural Diversity issue: No that's NOT the primary mission of a school, however, you will be exposed to it. I want my child to learn the basics, reading, math (algebra), etc that schools are supposed to teach.
But schools also teach or expose children to various cultures, etc. That's all I'm saying. I know there is a small minority population in Mahomet.
For those who believe that I don't want discipline, you are wrong. I do. However, when seemingly racist comments were written, I felt the need to respond. In order to change things, we shouldn't run away but fight to make them better. How to do that? I don't know.
I did not mean to upset anyone or to make any one angry and if I have, I apologize.
Jefferson mom, I applaud you for fighting the good fight. Many parents who have left the district have debated whether they should stay and help - it is not an easy decision.
The Champaign schools must come to believe that there are problems, real problems, in the district, and it is not just 'white flight'. The Veterans' Day assembly is just a small symbol of a district that embraces certain values that many people hold dear.
No, you're racist because you're making excessively broad generalizations about both races to suit your needs.
That's what racist means? Hmmm.
The idea that Mahomet kids and (this is a good one) St. Joe kids somehow have, "[more] respect for themselves, the administrators, and the process than do children from Centennial." Is laughable. Do you know anyone who went to St. Joe? I have several friends who went out to SJO and have reported the racism is rapant. Apparently there are lots of kids who do a little mini-Klan thing on the weekend for kicks (probably between cases of beer).
Ever heard of crystal meth? It's a fairly large problem out there as well.
What I am trying to articulate here is that looks can be deceiving. It is not ok to say that Centennial students (apparently you mean the black kids) have less respect for the administrators, teachers, and themselves. Why? Because they don't lie through their teeth to paint themselves as Saint Cindy and Super-Great Steve? Do you consider "respect" to be something that is given when you are being deceived?
Obviously not all white kids are smoking meth and hanging with the klan kids. Just as all kids at Centennial (even the black ones!) are not disrespectful to their administrators or themselves. Kids can be loud and (gasp!) black kids are often louder than white kids. That doesn't mean real learning is happening, and it definitely has nothing to do with the level or respect.
As a parent, I would rather have my students in a school with real diversity, where kids act like kids, and where they are taught to question values and think for themselves. Those are the values we, as parents, hold dear.
JCMA,
the diff between your examples of problems in St. Joe and in Champaign is that St. Joe didn't have 200 police visits to their high school and middle school last year.
I'm getting tired of you putting words in my mouth, JCMA.
I said nothing about St. Joe. I said Mahomet. I don't know what goes on in SJO, and I don't claim to.
When I said "Mahomet," I meant "Mahomet." Not "white kids." Likewise for "Centennial" and "black kids."
"As a parent, I would rather have my students in a school with real diversity, where kids act like kids, and where they are taught to question values and think for themselves. Those are the values we, as parents, hold dear."
Good for you, if that's what you think is the most important part of public education. As for my kids (the oldest of which will begin school in about 2 years), my wife and I will decide on a long-term residence and school district based on demonstrated quality of basic, college-oriented education and a focus on community involvement, extracurricular activities and respectful values. Those are the values that WE, as parents, hold dear. And I guarantee that Mahomet will be far higher on my list than Centennial for those standards.
So is "I don't think the purpose of schools is to expose kids to cultural diversity," anything other than a polite way of saying "I don't think my white kids should have to go to school with black kids?" I know "diversity" is a bad word among conservatives but I've never been sure what exactly it was a code-word for.
Should schools teach reading and math and maintain an environment of discipline that allows learning to take place? Of course, and everyone thinks so, and the suggestion that anyone doesn't think so is a total straw man. I stand by my earlier statement that kids will get away with what they can, regardless of their race or their town of residence. If Centennial is unsafe or undisciplined or "out of control" that's not the kids' fault, it's the administrators' fault.
It is irrelivent where blame for an out-of-control atmosphere lays - the end product of an undisciplined school is subpar education.
Ideally, I'd like a diverse school with the educational atmosphere of Mahomet. I'd love to have the best of all worlds.
However, since my choices are limited to a finite number of real-world schools in the area, I have to carefully weigh my options. Since it is more important to me that my children understand readin', ritin' and 'rithmetic than it is for them to have freinds from the widest cultural diversity possible, and my decisions are weighted by what is most important long-term to my childrens' educational well-being, I will chose a school that reflects that.
College is a different story, as more options will open up to my children, having had a solid primary education, they will be able to choose from a much wider variety of colleges than they would without such a rigorous primary education. The choice will be up to them for college, but if they can get into any college they wish because they have good educational roots, then they have the option of weighing their own choices of sports, education, diversity, etc, as to what is most important for them when choosing their own secondary education.
To suggest that a) you know what I'm thinking and b) I'd pick a school because it's "all-white" is condesceding, ignorant and prejudicial. I think you've got a problem with white conservative males.
Finally, stop putting words in my mouth AGAIN. I did NOT say: “I don't think the purpose of schools is to expose kids to cultural diversity,” I said that the PRIMARY purpose of schools is EDUCATION. Your paraphrasing is WAY off the mark.
First of all, I didn't put words in your mouth. I was writing to the other guy who mentioned St. Joe as much as I was writing to you, Green Guy. This is why I don't start my posts with reply names - you can kill more birds with the same post.
As for Mahomet's quality of education exceeding Centennial, or Urbana's --- I think all three schools are perfectly capable of producing outstanding students. The AP classes at UHS and CHS are as good as anything going on at Mahomet. The SATs are taken in both places and both schools have a large group of students who perform extremely well. In short, as a person who works in the schools I can tell you that your kids are just as likely to get a high quality education in Urbana or Champaign, as they are in Mahomet.
You can be afraid of security issues at Centennial, but the reality is that most of the kids who shoot up the schools are white kids, usually infatuated with firearms. They are also usually picked on by bullies - who are usually the popular white kids. Where are you more likely to find this subsection of society -- in Mahomet, or Champaign?
The other reality you should consider is that black kids often experience the negative effects of drug use at an early age. Again, as someone who works with these kids I can tell you -- I'd be less afraid of a black student doing drugs than I would of a white student. You might not believe that, but it's true. I'd much rather send my kids to Centennial than Mahomet. They are actually (imo) less likely to do drugs if they are in that environment --- mainly because (imo) the African-American kids are often more dedicated to learning than the white kids.
Although it is really more about the homelife and the parents than it is about the school. Which I am sure you know ...
Green Guy said:
Finally, stop putting words in my mouth AGAIN. I did NOT say: “I don't think the purpose of schools is to expose kids to cultural diversity,” I said that the PRIMARY purpose of schools is EDUCATION. Your paraphrasing is WAY off the mark.
I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. In fact, my comments were directed more at John, who referred to
a district that insists on cramming diversity down the parents throats and refusing to remove the trouble makers.
and RSW, who said
exposure to cultural diversity is not the primary mission of a school.
Who said that it was! The reality is that Champaign-Urbana has black kids, and they go to school with white kids. Mahomet has very few black kids. Is it the very presence of black kids that constitutes "cramming diversity down the parents throats?" If not, what is that phrase supposed to mean? It seems that the unstated subtext here is that "diversity" (which as far as I can tell means "integration") is somehow at odds with discipline or with reading, writing, and arithmetic, which I simply don't believe.
Green, what happens when they are exposed to varying cultures on a college campus? Will they be able to handle it? I work here at the U of I and when these kids come in as freshmen, most are pretty well acclimated to the diversity of races but some aren't. Some don't know what is proper and not proper behavior (yeah going out on a limb here) around other races. Same with those who are in all black or hispanic, etc schools. They need that cultural learning. As we all have said before, it's NOT THE PRIMARY GOAL of our school systems but it is a part of it and to me a very important part.
When these kids who haven't been exposed to different or varying cultures get a job, these people will come in contact with all races or people. They will have to get used to it but I feel that why not have that diversity when they are young and in their informative years and not when they are an adult and not know how to act.
This goes for any race of children, not just white. We are not just the color of our skin - we are people of character, values and beliefs. These are not color coded.
I can't say I'm the best person to explain this but my feeling with all the "white flight" as they call it going on is, they will leave a subset of society may eventually end up getting lost between the cracks and then, it will be you and I having to take care of them. I want my child to learn the basics and as we have established, that's the main reasons for schools. However, our children face some monumental issues I didn't face in school.
If we invest in our children now, teach them how to integrate now and equip them to make it in the world, we will do a huge service to ourselves, our society and the world.
We must stay in our schools and fight for them. Fight to bring back sanity, to bring respect but if we run from them, all we do is make things worse for everyone. We must try. Our children and society is worth it.
Jefferson Mom-
Do you live under a rock? Are you a psychologist at the U of I? If you live in Champaign county, you will be exposed to diversity. It is not 'white' flight as much as it is 'I don't want to pay for private school' flight. Don't insult the people who pull their kids out of Unit 4 schools in order to give their kids a better education. You can't even get all the school board members to send their kids to Unit 4. Whether or not U of I kids know how to react to the 'races' as a freshman has nothing to do with their diversity. Chicago whites are different than Champaign whites who are different than Memphis whites and on and on. Thanks for your input as a 'race' expert, but you are wrong.
If you live in Champaign county, you will be exposed to diversity.
Heh. You mean Champaign/Urbana - not Champaign county.
"As for Mahomet's quality of education exceeding Centennial, or Urbana's ӠI think all three schools are perfectly capable of producing outstanding students. The AP classes at UHS and CHS are as good as anything going on at Mahomet. The SATs are taken in both places and both schools have a large group of students who perform extremely well. In short, as a person who works in the schools I can tell you that your kids are just as likely to get a high quality education in Urbana or Champaign, as they are in Mahomet."
Eh, no. Mahomet far exceeds other area public schools. There's all kinds of data out there. Here's a few sites (dare to compare?):
http://orionschools.revealed.net/DistrictHtml/SchoolSearch2006/OrionCUSDPressReleaseSchoolSearch.pdf
(Notice Champaign county HS's on this site)
http://iirc.niu.edu/scripts/school.asp?schoolID=0901000300001&test=all
(Mahomet demographics are on this site to. You can search for other IL schools' demographics and overall school and district reports on this site)
Security isn't really an issue for me - but if you have to even have a discussion about having cops in a school, that should be a big red flag.
And sorry, I don't believe the hype that somehow kids that go to Mahomet are somehow at a mental disadvantage and not able to "deal" with other races after leaving MS. That's just blowing smoke - I think Crusader1 dealt with that fairly nicely.
"If you live in Champaign county, you will be exposed to diversity.
Heh. You mean Champaign/Urbana - not Champaign county."
How long can a teen/young adult live in Champaign County and not spend a significant amount of time in CU? Get real, every small town within 30 minutes of CU is hard-wired to CU.
Well said GREENGUY....with over 200+++ police calls in the CU district last year, it's hard to pass this off as ,''...picking on minorities and ignoring white kids." Every parent has the right to expect the absolute best EDUCATION for their children and not the best exposure to diversity. When my children attend college I want them as well educated in the basics as anyone...that is JOB 1 ( as FORD used to advertise). If I have to dictate energy and trips to school about discipline and safe conditions at the school, then that distracts from my childs education....regardless of the reason. The figures for MAHOMET test scores are correct......less police calls,fights,etc. equal more learning.
No response, JCM"A"?
Cold hard facts kind of have a way of killing subjective opinion, don't they?
I have some thoughts. First of all I didn't say they were at a mental disadvantage, I said they miss out on the cultural part of their education. I can't deny the fact that their test scores are higher and that's great for them.
However, when it comes to cultural sensitivity, not all of the towns around this area are "educated" in this area. Yeah they are testing better, maybe will be able to get into another school, however, when put in with others not their race, they segregate themselves. I've noticed at this university blacks and whites do the same (not in all cases) but in quite a few.
And just because you "live in Champaign County" doesn't mean that you're exposed and able to interact with other cultures. The yeah I see other races/cultures don't mean that they are interacting with them. They could see them and then segregate themselves to people that are like them. Being in a school together gets them more than "face time" with another culture, they will be able to interact and learn from each other.
And no, I don't live under a rock. But I see these children and young adults and how they interact. And this is what I notice.
The thing that got me into this discussion in the first place wasn't the "education piece" that everyone is talking about. It's the fact that someone said about the "HIP HOP" culture.
Whether or not U of I kids know how to react to the ”Ëœraces' as a freshman has nothing to do with their diversity.
Actually, it does. When you're exposed to something earlier, you are able to interact more confidently than if you haven't.
I feel that we will always be at an impasse about this. I do want the best education for my child and I want her to be the best. I also want her to be able to make it socially with other races.
"I feel that we will always be at an impasse about this. I do want the best education for my child and I want her to be the best. I also want her to be able to make it socially with other races."
Good luck, Jeff Mom.
"However, when it comes to cultural sensitivity, not all of the towns around this area are “educated” in this area."
So Mahomet needs cultural reeducation because they "aren't diverse enough"? Kind of like the "tacos and tequila" greeks on campus need social reeducation and sensitivity training because they threw a private party that offended some people that weren't there?
That sounds WAY too much like Clockwork Orange and 1984 for me....
Maybe you need "cultural reeducation" to understand where I'm coming from, having grown up in a small town, eh?
Sorry, I thought this conversation was over.
I'll just say this about your stats -- these are percentages. I never said CHS or UHS have the same percentage of students achieving at the level of MSHS. What I said, and it is true, is that the AP classes are just as good if not better, and that all three schools have large groups of students who perform exceedingly well on the SATs.
Yes, MSHS is going to have a larger percentage because they are working with a homogenous (racial and class) student body. When you mix it up, the percentages god down. That doesn't mean kids at Centennial are not getting a good education. It means there are some kids at Centennial who are bringing the percentages down. Does that make sense?
As for the racial aspect --- I wonder what you folks would like to do? This is a town where kids from *all* backgrounds mix. We have tons of foreign students, lots of poor kids, lots of rich kids, plenty of black kids, and plenty of whites. If you truly believe that a student cannot receive an excellent education through the Unit 4 or District 116 school systems then I would propose that you don't know many kids who have gone to school here. Lots of terribly bright minds do extremely well in these schools, and go on to long, prosperous careers in a variety of fields. That is just a fact.
Are there racial minorities? Sure. Are there problems with discipline and minor violence? Of course. Just as there are problems with violence, drugs, sex, stupidity, etc. in the Mahomet schools.
You have to make a choice for yourself. If you are so afraid of the schools that you are willing to move out of town, then go for it. It would probably be better for everyone to have your student out in Mahomet. But if you are willing to allow that we have a diverse community, and the schools are a reflection of the good and bad that goes along with that diversity, but they can still do a heck of a job educating your child, then stay put and enjoy all that C/U has to offer --- without the 20 minute commute.
It's your choice. Cheers! :)
"I'll just say this about your stats Ӡthese are percentages. I never said CHS or UHS have the same percentage of students achieving at the level of MSHS. What I said, and it is true, is that the AP classes are just as good if not better, and that all three schools have large groups of students who perform exceedingly well on the SATs."
No, those percentages are measured against solid standards. Centennial, Central and Urbana are all on the progress watch list for low scores and insufficient progress. ACT scores from Centennial equal Mahomet's average, Central and Urbana are both way below it.
And there may be a less diverse population than CU, but as for economic class, I beg to differ. 25% of the district is from the trailer park outside of town, not exactly an affluent area. The district consolodated with Seymour, so we get all the kids south of town, too. And not everyone in Mahomet lives in a $250k house, contrary to popular belief.
"Yes, MSHS is going to have a larger percentage because they are working with a homogenous (racial and class) student body. When you mix it up, the percentages god down. That doesn't mean kids at Centennial are not getting a good education. It means there are some kids at Centennial who are bringing the percentages down. Does that make sense?"
So a more diverse student body brings down educational quality? If there's a greater mix, and greater total number of kids, shouldn't the law of averages state that there should generally be just as many kids bringing the percentages up as there are bringing them down?
"If you truly believe that a student cannot receive an excellent education through the Unit 4 or District 116 school systems then I would propose that you don't know many kids who have gone to school here."
I'm married to a 2000 Centennial grad. I've met all of her close friends from school that she still talks to. All of my cousins went to Centennial or Central. My father went to Urbana, and my mother went to Centennial. Don't think that because I think Mahomet offers a better education that I have no idea what goes on in CU.
"Are there problems with discipline and minor violence? Of course. Just as there are problems with violence, drugs, sex, stupidity, etc. in the Mahomet schools."
Not in Mahomet to the extent that it goes on in CU and causes a problem.
And that 20-minute commute? My workplace is a two hour drive north of CU/Mahomet. I stay up here several nights a week. A few minutes either way doesn't bother me.
Well, you're pretty defensive. On the one hand you are declaring that MSHS's ACT scores are way above Unit 4 and District 116, according to the average (which, I assume, shows that Mahomet's education is superior), but then you say that kids can get a good education in the C/U districts, as per your friends and wife, etc.
So ... which is it? What is the problem you are trying to articulate, exactly? If a student can go through Unit 4 and get an excellent education, then what is the problem? You said it's not a security issue, but it is an out-of-control atmosphere? I am honestly not understanding you.
Do you think the 25 best students from Mahomet are smarter than the 25 best students from Centennial, or Urbana? That is the only thing I can see that would imply that "Mahomet offers a better education".
Or to put it another way: what is it about Mahomet that makes it a better education? What are the kids in the AP classes at Centennial, Central, and Urbana missing by *not* going to Mahomet?
Again, where's the beef?
I'll restate my point: on average MSHS is going to produce a higher ACT score percentage because of the homogenous student body. More affluent kids, mainly white kids, etc. It's not racist to know that white kids score better on the ACT. It's just a fact. Personally, I think it is because the tests are skewed toward a white understanding of the world, but that's a whole other conversation I don't want to have.
My kids are going to go through District 116. Probably Yankee Ridge or Leal, then UMS, the UHS. I expect they'll easily get into the college of their choice, play some sports, maybe be a part of the music program, etc. It should be a good experience for them.
Am I concerned because UHS's AYP is not up-to-snuff? Not at all. A kid going through US Government at UHS will probably have Michael Pollock, who is an outstanding teacher. The math teachers are great, the language department is pretty good, and who wouldn't want their kid in Mr. Lehr's English classes?
It's a good school, and a good education. So ... what's the problem, exactly? Something about diversity? Something about out-of-control atmospheres? Am I not supposed to read "racism" between the lines? Really?
"On the one hand you are declaring that MSHS's ACT scores are way above Unit 4 and District 116, according to the average (which, I assume, shows that Mahomet's education is superior), but then you say that kids can get a good education in the C/U districts, as per your friends and wife, etc. So ”¦ which is it? "
Did I say anything about my friends, family and wife's education? No, I said I'm well aquainted with persons from CU school districts, in response to your accusation that I wasn't. Don't try playing false choice and bait & switch here.
"...said it's not a security issue, but it is an out-of-control atmosphere?"
There's a huge difference between "undisciplined" - which I brought up - and "nutzo kids going on a shooting rampage" - which you brought up. Security isn't really an issue for me because I'm not concerned at all about a shooting rampage, and on the whole, I'm not concerned with a few fights and obnoxious kids here and there as a major security problem in the context that YOU described it, as a Columbine-style massacre. What I AM concerned with is how MANY fights and obnoxious kids there are in CU schools, and how that affects the learning environment.
"what is it about Mahomet that makes it a better education? What are the kids in the AP classes at Centennial, Central, and Urbana missing by *not* going to Mahomet?"
Sorry, the stats speak for themselves here. You can continue to spin it any way you want, but it still boils down to the facts - MSHS students score higher on standardized tests and ACTs than any other area school.
"It's not racist to know that white kids score better on the ACT. It's just a fact. Personally, I think it is because the tests are skewed toward a white understanding of the world"
Really? I thought you said it was the fact that there was a diverse cultural background that brought down scores...
Well, I know you graduated from MSHS so I'll assume your spelling and reading comprehension problems are due to the speed at which you debate. Let me try this one more time:
Can a student go through Unit 4 and receive as a good an education as a student who goes through Mahomet-Seymour? I don't mean percentages, ie: 80% of MSHS students score above a 20 or whatever, and only 60% of CHS do. I mean could your kids go through Unit 4, or 116, and receive a good education? Yes, or no?
If the answer is "no", then I'd respectfully disagree and advise you to meet some recent grads who are at far-flung schools like U of I, Harvard, Yale, Berkeley, etc.
If the answer is "yes", then I'd respectfully ask what it is you are spending so much time bitching about? Because, honestly, this is getting pretty tired. You're not attempting any sort of respectful discussion here, you are only trying to prove that there is no way anyone going to Centennial can possibly get as good an education as a person who goes to Mahomet, because Centennial is full of "obnoxious" "disruptive" kids (read: black) who ruin it for everyone.
You can't prove this, because it's not true. There are plenty (a majority!) of kids who get a really great education in these schools. But beyond their reading, writing, and arithmetic, they also get the experience of working side-by-side with people they may never work with, or even socialize with, again.
That is something you won't get at MSHS, or St. Joe, or Monticello, or any of the other all-white schools in the area. That probably doesn't mean a whole lot to you, but to my wife and I, and many of our friends, it means a lot more than protecting our kids from "disruptions" or "obnoxious" students.
But my kids will still get over 30 on the ACT, and will probably get into more than one 4-year school. It's win-win for us.
So ... what's the problem, again?
Its not the AP classes in Unit 4 that people are worried about. They are mostly white or asian (and part of what the consent decree is trying to change). The problem is if your kids are with the non AP kids. Trust me, from experience, there is a totally different world from the non-AP kids from Champaign vs. Mahomet.
"My kids are going to go through District 116. Probably Yankee Ridge or Leal, then UMS, the UHS. I expect they'll easily get into the college of their choice, play some sports, maybe be a part of the music program, etc. It should be a good experience for them."
"But my kids will still get over 30 on the ACT, and will probably get into more than one 4-year school. It's win-win for us."
So your kids are not yet in kindergarten but you've already got them pegged for 30+ on the ACT. They must be pretty good at coloring inside the lines.
Crusader makes the right point concerning the averages. The high-achieving students in Champaign and Urbana schools have (at least) the same scores as high-achieving students at M-S. The difference is that the low scorers (and their parents) at M-S (generally) place a high importance on the test and on school in general. The same (again generally) could not necessarily be said of the low scorers in C-U. It goes back to the debate of how much the schools can do and how much the learning attitude has to come from home.
So your kids are not yet in kindergarten but you've already got them pegged for 30+ on the ACT. They must be pretty good at coloring inside the lines.
Hey, I'm a dad. :)
It goes back to the debate of how much the schools can do and how much the learning attitude has to come from home.
I completely agree. This is actually the point I've been trying to make all along. How come some kids do really well in Unit 4, while others do not? Does it have to do so much with the school, or even the school environment, or does it have more to do with the homelife, expectations, etc.
The percentage game is meaningless to me. I believe my kids'll do great on the tests because I have every intention of providing them a nurturing, structured home life with lots of reading, love, etc. I don't care about percentages. I know my efforts will result in a child who does well academically, and also socially with diversity.
JCMA:
Your race baiting is really getting tiresome.
You're fighting a losing argument based solely on twisting what I say, and you won't give up and face facts. Either that or you're so ingrained with what you believe to be true that you refuse to see what is ACTUALLY true.
Either way, I'm tired of writing the same thing over and over.
Feel free to have your kids go to Urbana or Champaign or whatever, and thanks for keeping the children that you apparently will be indoctrinating with your screwy value system out of my kids' hair.
And grow up - everyone has typos here and there.
If you want to know the quality of a school take a look at their curriculum. The so called "better" schools such as MS do not offer the depth, breadth, or quality of courses that the maligned Champaign Urbana schools do. I am pasting in the AP classes offered at UHS and MS. I find the differences astonishing.
My child, who will graduate from UHS this year, has already taken AP calculus, AP physics, AP chemistry..... and I expect that a number of colleges will be offering scholarships based on the excellent test scores and the depth and quality of the course work at UHS. A prominent member of the math department at UIUC told me that the calculus class at UHS was equivalent to a freshman level class at UIUC.
Given the fact that over half the students in the Urbana school system qualify for free or reduced lunches I think their test scores are remarkably good. The factor that correlates with academic achievement the most is income. MS and surrounding school systems do not have the same issues in relation to their student bodies. The Urbana and Champaign schools have their problems and issues, but they are not lacking in quality education. Those who insist that this is the case are basing that assessment on shallow evaluation of the facts.
UHS AP Classes
Art: Art History
Studio Art
Biology
Chemistry
Computer Science: Computer Science A
Computer Science AB
Economics Microeconomics
Macroeconomics
English Language and Composition
English Literature and Composition
Environmental Science
French: Language
Literature
German Language
Government & Politics: Comparative Government and Politics
United States Government and Politics
History: American History
European History
World History
Human Geography
Latin: Vergil
Literature
Mathematics: Calculus AB
Calculus BC
Music Theory
Physics: Physics B
Physics C
Psychology
Spanish: Language
Literature
Statistics
MS AP Classes
AP English Literature/Composition (High Honors) 1 credit
AP Calculus (AB) (High Honors) 1 credit
AP Biology (High Honors) 1 credit
AP Chemistry (High Honors) 1 credit
AP Physics (High Honors) 1 cred
Please.
I took AP Calculus and AP Physics at MSHS and those were accepted as college coursework at UIUC.
I'll agree that UHS offers a wider variety, but you have no basis for assuming that the actual class quality itself is any better or worse than other AP courses offered at other schools. That's a subjective judgement call.
Naturally a larger student body is going to mean a whole heck of a lot more things: more sports and extracurricular options, larger variety of classes, etc.
But the teacher to student ratio is worse at UHS than MSHS, and "more" doesn't equate to "better."
"If you want to know the quality of a school take a look at their curriculum."
Sure, if you set the parameters of school evaluation to look at JUST the variety of courses offered. We're looking at the whole picture here.
"Naturally a larger student body is going to mean a whole heck of a lot more things: more sports and extracurricular options, larger variety of classes, etc."
Naturally, a larger student body is going to mean more police calls and discipline referrals, too. So, the NUMBER of police calls really isn't a good measure when comparing CU schools to Mahomet schools -- quite difference in population numbers.
"Sure, if you set the parameters of school evaluation to look at JUST the variety of courses offered. We're looking at the whole picture here."
Actually, just a few replies ago, you were setting the parameters of school evaluation on test scores -- that's not the whole picture. Again, not a good measure. Thanks to NCLB, special education scores, etc. are factored in. Mahomet schools don't serve nearly the number of special education students as CU schools.
my intention with this post was not to create a battle over what school district is the best - I just wanted to point out an event at Mahomet schools that would seem to be quite unacceptable in Champaign.
Some people see it as a minor thing - no big deal either way. Some posters here think it is indoctrination. If you have a more conservative mindset, a open display of love of country and its military at school just reinforces what kids hear at home. I thought it deserved note.
Test scores seem to me to be a much fairer evaluation of how the school is doing, compared to just being able to say you offer more courses.
And I've said many times on this string that MS is far better in areas outside of the classroom, as well. Look at the entirety of the music program, the wrestling team, etc.
And yes, more kids mean more raw number of police calls. It also means more raw number of fights, drug dealing, and more raw numbers of troublemakers and trouble in general. I think that's a perfectly fair way to evaluate a school, by "trouble density" based on raw numbers.
Finally, a higher raw number of special needs test scores should be balanced by a higher number of NON special needs test scores, by the law of averages, since the school population as a whole is larger. It shouldn't make a statistically significant difference whether or not MS and UHS factor in special needs scores.
Well, as I've tried to articulate several times, I think MSHS is a great school. The problem is that I also think the Unit 4 high schools and UHS are also great schools. I personally believe that I would rather have my student attend the C/U schools because I want them to get a good education and experience the benefits of our diverse communities. But, again, that's just my opinion.
I'd be willing to leave it at that, but this simple equation doesn't seem to satisfy "Green Guy" who is insistent that no, MSHS is the best school and the other schools apparently suck.
So, I'll ask the question-that-will-never-be-answered one more time. Can a student get an excellent education in C/U by using the public schools? Yes or no? If the answer is "yes" then why are we having this discussion?
One last re-iteration: Mahomet kids are not angels, by any stretch. To believe that there are more drugs, sex, violence, etc. in the C/U districts is to express an ignorance of the Mahomet night life. As a guy who knows a few kids who go out there I can tell you straight: there are plenty of those kids who are flying pretty high on the weekends, and during the week.
Which is just to say that there is no safe haven when your kids are in high school. It is all about parental involvement and the installation of good values at an early age. Lots of kids in Champaign have those solid values, just as lots of kids in Urbana and Mahomet have them as well. I don't think any local community has a lock on educational excellence, or moral fortitude.
Though, really ... singing the Marine Hymn while watching a flag wave is a bit much. For me. :)
For the sake of not wearing down my keyboard anymore, I'll agree that a good educashun can be got at a publik skool in both Mahomet and CU.
I just think Mahomet is a better school all-around. And so does my wife who went to Centennial. So MS is the top of my pick list for districts for our children.
And on that note, I'm willing to leave it at "let's agree to disagree."
My kids have been in the Urbana schools for 5 years and they have never been in fight, near a fight and they have not been unsafe.
I do not understand why there is the need to assert superiority. The school systems are different. They offer different environments and curriculms. UHS is very diverse, offers great classes, especially for college bound kids, and has great test scores for the college bound kids. MS is a more homogonous school system, it is smaller and more rural and it has overall good test scores because it does not have a large lower income population, different ethnic groups that need things like English as a Second Language, etc.
If you took the same demographic group from UHS as you have at MS I would wager the test scores are as good if not better. We are lucky to have a choice. You can pick a more urban school system with lots of diversity and a great education or you can choose a more suburban/rural school system with more homogenity. It does not make one superior to the other except for the fact that it meets your preferences. Those of us who have chosen the CU schools are getting very tired of our schools being maligned. They are good schools. There is always room for improvement, but that is true in MS as well. We should be working together to be sure all kids get a good education instead of insisting that our choice is the only good choice.
I know this is an old thread but one way or another I came across it and have this to offer; At the High School a Maj. Hunter came and spoke about how the media is lying to us and that the war in Iraq is going just dandy. The ignorent man gave Rush Limbaughlike uneducated talking points and wasted everyones time. Many students were angered at his factually incorrect if not at least factually questionable speech. Mostly he spoke about the medias lies and building schools that were painted pink. But most importantly the pink schools, that were schools painted pink. He was very impressed that the schools built were painted pink apprantly...
what H.S. is that?