The regular report on Iraq describes widespread corruption in Iraq which causes funding and goods to not reach their intended purpose in the reconstruction effort.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/848cffd0d4d0d66de754cc536dcd83c6.htm
An Army Captain details the problems with corruption.
www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php
I have an honest question:
Why is it that we cut dozens of necessary government programs due to inefficiencies in the spending that cost us thousands or in some cases millions of dollars, and yet we are willing to continue to throw away BILLIONS in war efforts?
I'm not saying there is no defensible reason to rebuild Iraq. Quite the opposite. But if you aren't actually going to make any effort to ensure that the money actually serves its purpose, why not just cut a check to me? I can't remember the last time I spent a dollar on myself. I'll make sure something good comes out of it.
Our health care and educational systems could use the money dearly. Why do we continue to pass millions and billions on to crooks and smugglers?
when you are in a battle for the continuation of "Western culture", you have to put up with a little graft?
as to the "dozens of necessary government programs" cut because of inefficiencies, please tell me what they were - I would love to hear of some gov't programs that were actually cut.
Oh, so throwing away a billion dollars or so on some unsupported wacko ideological concept is good, but "Night Basketball Leagues" which prevent street violence are not? How do you know when a battle is indeed for the continuation of Western Culture or not? Torturing enemy combatants or denying due process to American citizens would seem to be a far greater threat to Western Culture. May I drop 1 billion dollars on those concepts now?
How about Special Education programs for schools (which are now in violation of IDEA)?
How inner-city music programs or higher education funding? How about need-based grants and financial aid?
I'm still reeling that a self-described fiscal conservative would endorse the WILLFUL squandering of so much money. Listen to the link, that American officer like many others believes that the war effort may be jeopardized by the amount of corruption we are allowing.
So what are you arguing, that the terrorists winning, which your plan seems to guarantee, is the cure for Western Civilization?
If we want to win, how about we stop throwing money to the enemy and war profiteers?
" Why is it that we cut dozens of necessary government programs"
I, too, would like some more information about these "necessary government programs" that have been cut, especially in the wake of the bloated spending bill that passed the House today, with bipartisan support.
"Oh, so throwing away a billion dollars or so on some unsupported wacko ideological concept is good"
If I believed that to be true, then I would be strongly opposed to throwing away billions of $'s.
I'm actually surprised. I assumed that good conservatives would be utter shocked and outraged by the idea that we are in danger of losing the war effort because a large portion of our rebuilding funds are being misdirected and misused.
Oh well, nitpick away at my post. I don't mean to be rude, and I don't really care for a public answer, but just for yourselves, did you ever listen to the interview or read the article? You don't seem to be discussing much other than tangential points from my post...
If you don't believe what I said to be true, perhaps it would behoove you to view the evidence.
I don't question the waste, I was questioning the unsupported wacko ideological concept
thanks though
you don't really care that there is fraud or profiteering going on, do you? You only care that it might be another reason that we should stop the effort, that we should quit this wacko ideological quest.
WTF? Are you just trying to pick a fight? I did some research and posted links to that research and asked honest questions. You answered with a really vague connection about how tossing this money down a hole has something to do with saving Western Civilation from some indistict enemy threat.
I'm not your enemy. I worked 16 hours yesterday for our country. I'm a fricking American hero. Could you actually treat my time with enough respect to answer the issue I'm actually discussing?
I seriously was blind-sided by the response to this post. I spent the time to produce it because Mark posted the one of the stupidest posts in the history of mankind about the semantic implications of "Democratic" while an earth-shaking report was produced.
And I get ZERO legitimate responses.
Forget it. You're right, whatever, I'm an Uncle Sam hating idiot. Go blow another tremendous amount on corruption and lost weaponry you awesome fiscal conservative, just leave me alone. I'm going to wallow in the mess that you are making of the country I love by watching some bad TV.
Of course, nobody wants corruption. If it is really threatening our chances of success in Iraq, then we need to deal with. There really isn't anything more to discuss about that.
The real point of your post is why the federal government spends taxpayer money on a war in Iraq when people like you say that the government should spend more taxpayer money on social programs.
Federal government spending on social programs keeps going up and up. Moreover, there are some who still believe that the federal government has no legitimate power to spend tax.
You need to understand that most people do not share your obsession with government intervention to solve social problems. It may surprise you, but many people think that those government programs just make things worse.
Even though things are tough for you in the CPS, I'm sure you realize that it's a little worse in Iraq, and perhaps a little more difficult to control how the Iraqis spend money given to them. It seems obvious that the standards for efficiency and no corruption should be much higher in the US than in countries where a war is going on.
I'm a fricking American hero.
Have you seen the Dodge minivans with "Sport" written on the side of them? Have you ever seen a real sports car with the word "Sport" written on it?
I, too, would like some more information about these "necessary government programs" that have been cut,
Well, there's NASA. And there's Energy. And you don't even want to know what they're doing to veterans. I mean, come on. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.
I assumed that good conservatives would be utter shocked and outraged by the idea that we are in danger of losing the war effort because a large portion of our rebuilding funds are being misdirected and misused.
Xian - you obviously haven't been paying attention, or else you're at the wrong site.
You need to understand that most people do not share your obsession with government intervention to solve social problems. It may surprise you, but many people think that those government programs just make things worse.
Really? So most people don't believe in law enforcement, fire, public health, education or the census? We believe in expensive social interventions in a far away country that we cannot control corruption in, but not in the U.S.? That makes a ton of sense. Perhaps in your little circle that's true. Even just among my right-wing friends and peers, I don't know anyone who fits into your "most people" group. It sounds like an extreme libertarian viewpoint...
Have you seen the Dodge minivans with "Sport" written on the side of them? Have you ever seen a real sports car with the word "Sport" written on it?
Cute. Anonymous is pulling my card and calling me a fraud. That's classy. I actually have not seen any of the minivans to which you refer to, but I understand the metaphor. I may be a fraud, but a decent human being might do a little research before implying so just to win an argument. If someone says they are a soldier in Iraq, do you call them a fraud too if they disagree with you? How about when you are reading the Bible, do you shout at the pages, "Son of God, my butt, just like one of those Dodge Minivans!"?
Xian - you obviously haven't been paying attention, or else you're at the wrong site.
Fair enough, although people around here certainly claim to be interested in discussion to improve the society. They do name the site "IP Freely" after all. Oh wait, that was me.
"WTF? Are you just trying to pick a fight?"
I was thinking the same thing. I answer your question with a serious answer - I am not ready to abandon a serious war because of fraud and corruption and i get - "Oh, so throwing away a billion dollars or so on some unsupported wacko ideological concept"
You don't like the war - fine.
If that's what you meant, I apologize. Please continue and elaborate.
My eyes tend to gloss over when people use phrases like "protect the future of our civilization" to describe conflicts where we invade sovereign nations. I'm not saying we should never under any circumstances invade a sovereign nation, but we ought to have something more substantive than your reason.
many people believe that the future of our civilization is being threatened - seriously. A functioning democracy in Iraq could change the entire region, kind of like a reverse "domino theory".
Corruption is the reality today, whether you live in podunk, da city, or Baghdad. Many of the problems with our system are in the realities that it does not click on all cylinders when reliance on corrupted individuals is necessary. The system has been corrupted, both internally and externally. Thank God for the checks and balances, although the necesstiy and the cost to employ them is at the root of the waste. A tremendous waste at that. Our hands are tied in some many ways. Nothing comes easy, everything is contested and in the end it still gets corrupted, mainly due to the BU....cracy.
The systems abuse, misuse and inefficiency is leading towards its demise. Our country is like an infant, it has yet to reach any maturity, its only two hundred ish years old. There are no gaurantees of our continued existance. There is an enemy that is out to take us down through an unconventional barage of attacks both militarily and politically with a great degree of subversion. This is the reality of our day, your day if your an American, Jew or non Muslim.
The corruption of our political leaders is very much to blame. The partisanship has created an easy avenue for the enemies of our country to expoit, as they do like Ali floated. Do you understand the role the liberal activist plays in this propaganda expolitation of the liberal activist puppet. Yes, there is a tremendous waste and injustice to this world and its occupants. The liberal heart is in the right place, but the finger pointing is misdirected given the realities of our circumstances and the chess game being played over the last two hundred ish years, this is were we are today. Who's side are you on.
many people believe that the future of our civilization is being threatened - seriously. A functioning democracy in Iraq could change the entire region, kind of like a reverse "domino theory".
Fine. I'll respond less flippantly then. If you are one of those people, why should we feel this way? People said the same thing about every different group in the history of the world.
Ractivist, I'd say the say thing. Who is this enemy you describe? Are the whirling dervishes part of it?
I have my own ideas, but I find that when I share them, the tendency is to tear them down rather than create your own brilliance.
So tell me what you believe first and we can discuss it civilly.
Well, it's at least nice to see that we are no longer denying that the war is sucking money that could be used in far more productive ways. I find it interesting that future of our civilization hinges on what happens in Iraq. If that is truly the case, why aren't we send 200,000 troops there, instead of 20,000? Why do it on the cheap?
A cynic would say that there is no civilization on the line in Iraq. Instead, the only thing really up for grabs are the profits. How many billions so far? 400? 500? Where does all that money go? Surely it's not to the soldier's salaries. It's possible to think like a cynic and believe that maybe our President is really just a high-priced salesman for the arms and energy industries. That maybe this whole "future of civilization" thing is a talking point carefully drawn up by the same ad executives who produced the evidence for invasion in the first place. I believe Bush believes it, but that doesn't make it true (as has been proven over and over again).
But who knows? Maybe RSW is correct. Maybe the billions pouring into Iraq (which could have easily paid for universal health care or saved social security by now) are really essential for the future existence of our country and civilization. Seems like kind of a stretch, and I've yet to see any convincing evidence that proves the theory is true, but it could be true.
Maybe the question is: if we refuse to take care of our own citizens, the creation, and even our constitutional foundations, then what civilization are we actually fighting for? Seems to me we might be in danger of destroying our own civilization?
Just a thought.
"If that is truly the case, why aren't we send 200,000 troops there, instead of 20,000?"
Anti-war protesters, Democrats in Congress
Maybe the question is: if we refuse to take care of our own citizens, the creation, and even our constitutional foundations, then what civilization are we actually fighting for?
The "hate America first crowd" shows its colors yet again.
Wow, more ignorant one-liners. The incapable of intelligent debate crowd shows its true colors again.
Whether or not you think this is the case now or not, can you really not see how blind patriotism destroys the ideals of our country.
There were Third Reich wannabes in pre-War Germany using the same "Our country is infallible and anyone who disagrees with me is just wrong" logic. I'm not saying that you are the same, but I am curious what separates you from them.
Anti-war protesters, Democrats in Congress
Really? You really believe that President Bush and Cheney are unwilling to send the forces necessary because of some anti-war protesters and the newly empowered Congress? Really? Seems to me they could have send 200,000 troops over the summer and the congress would have signed off on it. If they had quelled the violence by November they might still have the Senate. You really believe your President doesn't do what he thinks is right because of anti-war protesters? Wow.
The "hate America first crowd" shows its colors yet again.
This statement makes no sense. Because I object to illegal surveillance, the cutting of social programs that benefit the neediest, and environmental neglect, I am a hate-America-first person? Seriously, that's a pretty big insult, and I don't believe I've insulted you so far (I haven't intended to). Do you really mean to throw this accusation out there, or are you just talking to talk? I think to need to peel back the rhetoric a bit here and try to have a reasonable discussion, if possible.
I could say that could convince you or pu-lease that we needed to go into Iraq, and that we need to stay and win. You have tried to "expose" hypocrisy in my position, via the fiscal conservative angle, and then the "why not send more troops if it is so important" angle. I responded - I'm done now.
My position won't change - I hope the US wins this war, and that we can leave behind a stable Iraq when we go. I will even go so far as to say that if it takes a Dem President to accomplish this goal, so be it.
If there's nothing you could say, then it means that a suitable reason must not exist, since a suitable reason would convince me.
It's amazing that you could be finished before you even started supporting your points. Am I supposed to drop all my beliefs just because you say "America is under ATTACK!!"
I'm not "trying" to expose anything. I'd just like to get some kind of answers so I have some idea what your position is supposed to be.
The "Hate America" comment.
Someone sends thousands of Americans to die in a far-off place.
Someone spends billions and billions of dollars to do it.
Nothing is gained, except promises of potential but unrealized partial success.
Someone else says, "Stop! Enough already!".
Is the second person a "Hate America" person, or a "Loves America" person?
Hmmmm.
The reason so many people get categorized is due to the reality they side with like people. If you are a socialist in CU
THAT SAYS YOU WANT TO CHANGE AMERICA YOU DON"T LIKE IT AS IT IS. That in itself is not such a stretch, but to do it by attacking the very precepts by which our country was founded, like personal freedom, property rights unobtrusive government, limited government. Socialistic concepts have no place in America. The two party system has major problems, again more in line with our many corrupted politicians than with the system itself. Tell me what system of government isn't corrupted, doesn't pay a heavy price as a result. The problem as I see it is when you ignore the rest of the worlds issues and focus on our shortcomings, regardless of the necessity at play many times. Iraq is what it is. A war zone gone crazy. Why? Cuzz there are a bunch of religious Muslim zealots hell bent on keeping it that way. What choice do we have today, lots of choices, what price is there to pay, depends on the road traveled. Is the price weighed in a body count or dollar signs? Is it a racist count, US vs Iraquis? Blind patriotism is a missnomer. Patriotism is at the core of the debate. If you do not back your country as it plays the multi level chess game of life and war, you are indeed helping our enemies. if you think you are helping by being part of the highly visible , vocal minority of heart felt logic, never minding reality, wake up. You are not helping. United we stand divided we fall. I do not believe our country is corrupt, I do know many politicians are, I support our country and vote for the other guy come election time, I did not vote for Blago. If our populace supported Bush along the way verses contesting every thing we would have much greater results by now and have saved money. Instead we are caught up in the same old same old, hind sight debate. Xian-- as far as who is the enemy? They are as varied as our country and the world is corrupted. They are everywhere. Are you AWARE? Sucks to be a Christian country. NOT! Just a price to be paid and we will be paying a very heavy price before it is over. Cuzz many of our enemies hate us to death and many of our misguided enemies fall in the politically correct crowd and continue to open the door for them to ATTACK.
GO BEARS