Friday night was supposed to be uneventful. The Dems' monthly social gathering was at Gina Jackson's on N. 5th that night, and I stopped by to chat with people. As it was winding down, we heard that there was a problem outside. A few people and I went to see what was going on, and we saw a crowd of people and a number of police cars and police officers. As we got closer, we saw a black teenager on the ground surrounded by police officers and emergency medical personnel. He appeared to be bleeding, and he was also salivating a lot. People said that he'd been pepper-sprayed and the paramedics were treating him for that and loading him into an ambulance.
The crowd seemed upset, and I talked briefly with a sergeant from the Champaign Police Department. From what I could piece together, the kid had resisted when the cops tried to stop him. The sergeant said that people did not have the right to resist when police were performing their lawful duties.
After that, I talked with some people who'd been there. Last week, someone had fired shots at a car in the neighborhood, and was apparently still at large. One of the men said that he'd heard that the Champaign police had been ordered to "get tough" on the area. Around 7:40 p.m., a teen had gotten a ticket for pulling into a parking lot without signaling. This surprised me since I've seen lots of drivers who don't seem to be acquainted with their turn signals, but I've never seen any of them get tickets.
A group of kids had been walking home from an activity at the Douglas Park building around 8:30 p.m. The park closed at the same time that the building did, but the kids had to cross the park to get home. There had apparently been some problems in the Douglas Park area, and it sounded like that may have been the reason that the cops stopped the them. One guy got angry because it seemed unfair to be stopped when he hadn't done anything wrong. That's when things went downhill fast. The police said that he'd resisted, they'd used pepper spray, and the kid had fallen and hit his head. Some people in the crowd said that the cops had "stomped" the guy after he was down, and the police sergeant said that the only force used was the pepper spray. It was hard to see, since it was dark and there were a bunch of of people gathered around the guy.
Gina Jackson and Michael LaDue were very concerned and met with police that night. It's not yet clear what will happen. One thing that struck me that night was that there were many legitimate points of view, and it was impossible to distill some objective, neatly-packaged version of the truth from everything I heard. There will probably be some who claim that the police are maliciously harassing black people, and others who retort that the police are blameless and the kid was asking for it. But I think the reality is far more complicated.
I have traveled all over America, and have lived north and south, in big cities and small towns. The sad truth is that except for rural southern white towns (which I have visited but never lived in) Champaign, even as Champaign-Urbana, is the most racist town I have ever been in. And that goes both ways. Whites on blacks, blacks on whites, and even, or especially, both blacks and whites on Asians. Very sad.
Signed,
A pretty conservative middle aged white guy.
I heard on 90.1 FM that the teenager resisted because he didn't feel that he was doing anything wrong and didn't need to listen to the police officer's instructions.
When the Champaign police chief, R. T. Finney, was in Carbondale, he used the same tactics. His way of handling problems is to make the police into thugs and have them ALWAYS mace first and ask questions later.
His police force was notorious for stopping black students, harrasing them and macing them. Of course, in every situation, it was always difficult to figure out what REALLY happened.
His organizational standards mimic the style of the Chicago police department. Notice that you rarely see any mention of his name? He hides behind his desk and does his best to stay out of any media mentionings. He's a coward of a police chief, and insolent towards the public. Probably some of his rationalization is based upon ambition, which when he was in Carbondale, the talks were that he simply uses college towns to climb the police chief ladder -- building a reptuation for policing a town with transient populations until he finally gets to a town that pays the chief a lot of money and doesn't have much crime so he can just kick back and chill.
Carbondale is still suffering from his tenure as police chief. The department is in utter chaos with organization and how to slow down crime. They are hostile towards public information, transparency and working with the media.
When I was a reporter at the DI, I had the same experiences with the Champaign police department -- they were completely unorganized, Finney never returned phone calls, was impossible to get in touch with -- basically didn't exist -- and the department was just as hostile towards the media. One thing that readily stands out is how the Champaign police department does not post the police blotters online. You actually are required to have a media pass, go into a small room with no electronic devices (just a pen and paper) and write down what crimes took place that day. Both the Urbana police and the University police readily make their police blotters available online -- and, btw, are super friendly with the media and public.
Now the point of that little story isn't to say he's rotton towards the media. The media have no more rights or access then the public --and this is how the man wants public information controlled.
Trying to get anything out of the Champaign police department, from my experience, has been to file a Freedom of Information Act and threaten with a lawyer. Then, after being given the run-around for four or more weeks, they might try to call you.
I grew up Carbondale and I've met many members of his family in Southern Illinois at random places and when I've worked at Heartland Regional Medical Center. They're well connected and try to build a upon a real podunk style of networking and connections. They try to control some of the less glamarous positions but vital to infrastructure.
R.T. Finney represents the Chicago style of corruption and leadership -- him and Blagojevich and Ryan would make perfect bed fellows.
Interesting!
I have frequently observed CPD officers violating traffic laws when not in pursuit. I 've filed a bunch of complaints against CPD officers for Illinois Vehicle Code violations, including failure to signal turns. CPD refuses to follow their own complaint procedure when handling such complaints, instead preferring to ignore them. Appeals regarding mishandled complaint go to Steve Carter, but he is also unresponsive.
So I find it *EXTREMELY* interesting that they are using what the characterize as petty, inconsequential vioations to harrass citizens - the very people who they are paid to SERVE and PROTECT.
CPD management (Finney, et al) are slimeballs. Something needs to be done...quickly.
Does anyone know what happened to Finney's kid for selling pot at the middle school? Were there *any* consequences?
I think Finney must be having a rough time. He's added some pounds and a chin or two in the past year.
That's interesting that he controls access to the blotter information. Constitutionally, the media are no different than any other citizen. There are no special "fourth estate" rights. What would happen if the average joe off the street wanted to see the daily blotter?
Wow.
Campus was actually hit with 4 armed robberies last night. You can read about it here.
If Champaign police were told to get "tough" in response to some shots fired, I wonder how they will react to these incidents.
Unfortunately, despite a campuswide email from University police, I doubt most people will be discouraged from their usual weekend activities (getting hammered).
I would really hope that these were isolated incidents and that they don't lead to a larger uptick in crime.
I don't normally respond to these types of allegations; however, let me make a few comments regarding the anonymous posts concerning my family and time in Carbondale. If you had problems contacting me in Carbondale or Champaign then you failed to take advantage of the Carbondale media hotline updated three time per day, Police blotters for the media who required more information, the Public Information Officer assigned solely to respond to the media needs, as well as all the media having my home and cell phone number. In Champaign we also have an individual assigned to media relations as well as open police blotters. No, the police blotter is not yet on the internet but we are working on creating a process to download the hundreds of pieces of information on the blog. Other agencies select what is placed on the net. We do not try to pick and choose what WE think the media is interested in, so we post everything that occurred during certain time periods. The media will then follow up with questions. At this time our records management system prevents this from occurring. In addition, many of the media outlets have my cell phone number or the numbers of my Deputy Chiefs.
I will not discuss personal family issues on this blog, would you? However, to anonymous who has met my family members who run Carbondale, I will offer this. Other than my immediate family (wife and three children) who lived there for five years and then moved to Champaign with me, my extended family never lived in Carbondale. My mother was a housewife and my father was a coal miner years ago. My father currently lives in a nursing home, but possibly you met my mother at the Heartland Regional Medical Center when she passed away there in 2004. If I have other family members that are "well connected and try to build a upon a real podunk style of networking and connections. Who try to control some of the less glamorous positions but vital to infrastructure”, please let me know who they are. Maybe you are talking about my brother who lost a job when the coal mines closed in Southern Illinois and works for the Department of Corrections as a guard. Or maybe, my younger brother who drives trucks for auto part stores. Other than those two, I have no other relatives in Southern Illinois. Unless, it might be my daughter who is a private in the Army serving in Iraq. Are these the positions vital in infrastructure that you are referring?
Finally, thank you for noticing my weight. You are correct when you say that I have gained some weight. When people notice these things I guess it is time to begin to think more about your own health. You see, I used to run a lot, in fact everyday. When I came to Champaign I had just ran the Chicago Marathon. In fact my first news conference was the same weekend as the marathon. I tried to keep up the running but life seemed to get in the way, new job, move, mother passing away, teenage children, daughter going to Iraq, and just getting older, all hampered my best efforts to keep up the running. But, hey, if you are noticing my weight maybe this is the push I need. The sad reality is that this is my normal weight range. Sorry to disappoint you.
Being the Police Chief of any city is not an easy job, however, I find it very rewarding. I work with 156 employees who provide police services to this community 24 hours, everyday of the year, and they do it very well. I am very proud of the job they do. The police chief, however, answers to the community, the media, City Council and to the employees he oversees. There must be a balance of representation to each group and sometimes the interests of the different groups might be at odds. In the above situation, I would ask that the community allow us to investigate the event and not jump to conclusions. I would like to thank Wayward for presenting a balanced report of the incident in question.
Chief Finney, you were one of the people who helped bust Michael Swango in Adams County, weren't you? I think I may have seen you mentioned in James Stewart's "Blind Eye." I'm from the Springfield area, and Swango's sort of a black eye for SIU School of Medicine.
Dear Chief Finnney,
Thank you for sharing your response with this board, though it included about 400% of the courtesy and time the everpresent anonymous deserved.
John
"Dear Chief Finnney,
Thank you for sharing your response with this board, though it included about 400% of the courtesy and time the everpresent anonymous deserved.
John"
Cosign.
If this post is indeed from the chief, I'm surprised but impressed. It's a risk to jump into a public forum such as this and to reply with such candor. Your restraint is also commendable.
I had a somewhat unfavorable opinion of Chief Finney, and that opinion had been fortified by this confrontation in Douglass Park. I'll have to reconsider my opinion now.
I don't see anything impressive or redeeming in Finney's response.
Judge a person by their actions.
If Finney helped to catch Michael Swango in Quincy (and it sounds like he did), that in itself is something. For those who don't remember, Swango was basically a serial killer with an MD who liked to poison his victims. He made the news here in 2001 when it was established that former UIUC gymnast Cynthia McGee died because Swango murdered her, so Michael Bone was cleared of reckless homicide.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Swango
I'm sure if FInney were sitting on the toilet when Swango was caught, and he were employed by Qunicy police at the time, he'd claim he was instrumental in apprehending the guy. The guy is about as honest and sincere and moral as a used car salesman -- or a politician. Everthing that comes out of his pie hole has a spin on it, and the spin always favors Finney. That's my opinion, anyhow.
Pardon my tense agreement errors in the prior post. I'm still working on mastering English.
"The guy is about as honest and sincere and moral as a used car salesman -- or a politician. Everthing that comes out of his pie hole has a spin on it, and the spin always favors Finney. That's my opinion, anyhow."
Huh?, you're entitled to your opinion, and I am generally interested in how you formed it. 9:58 AM, Anonymous made a lot of unsubstantiated claims, and Finney attempted to address them and offer his own POV. You've made some strong claims yourself -- what are they based on?
Personal experience, and now for som..., personal experience.
I wouldn't talk about my family if my kid got caught selling pot. That would be too embarrassing. And if I am the chief of police, I especialy don't want to talk about my family, cause people may think if I cannot run my own family and have them behave legally, I prolly canlt have my department behave legally.
R.T. Finney's response is not really responsive to any substantive issue(s). Talking about his weight does nothing to refute claims that he is incompetent. Talking about his relatives does nothing to refute claims that his department lacks transparency.
If R.T. Finney wants to make an impression, if he wants to convince people that he's doing a good job, he should be responsive to FOIA requests, make complaints and investigations reasonably open to the people who pay his salary (you and I), hold officers accountable for their actions, and so forth.
You won't see that, though, because he can only manage public perceptions if he controls the flow of information. Transparency would lead to the demise of his regime.
Please stop the personal attacks.
If you have a problem with something Chief Finney that relates to his official capacity, please share your criticisms in a constructive manner.
But the personal cheap shots have gone overboard, and if they continue, I'll start deleting things, and I really don't like to do that.
Thank you.
Is anonymous 5:46 a local person who constatntly complains about police officers making turns without turn signals, files complaints about it, papers Finney with FOIAs, and also runs a local bus company?
It sure seems I have heard this tune before.
It appears that you are confusing me with Guess Who. But it's nice to hear from representatives of the Champaign Police Department, again.
08:25 PM, Anonymous - Why don't you tell us where you stand on the issue of transparency, accountability, and so forth. That would be more productive, as IP points out, than worrying about who is taking a position which you dislike. Argue the issue.
Do you see the police as potentially occupying a leadership role in the community? Do you think police conduct affects how people in the community, particularly the minority communicty, behave?
Do you have a position on the police ticketing the young man for pulling into the parking lot without using his turn signal?
Do you think there is any correlation between police routinely violating traffic laws and other rules, if that is happening, and police who overstep the bounds of their powers and engage in criminal activity such as beating up bartenders? Or who push the limits of acceptable behavior by slamming a mouthy but otherwise law abiding 17 year old kid onto the ground?
Do you think that police should oversee police? Do you think there is anything inherently wrong with that sort of system?
Do you think complaints about police should be secret? How about if personal (identifying) information is erased?
Do you think it's reasonable for government to operate in secrecy?
I'm sure you have some interesting ideas. Please share them.
Regarding the police blotter:
It's been years since I had the joyous task of copying down the blotter for publication. I always found it to be stressful, as I took no pleasure in rolling out the details and trying REALLY, REALLY hard to avoid making even the slightest error that could lead to major legal problems.
I've never thought about walking in off the street and asking for access to the blotter simply as a member of the public. I should try that sometime.
But the way I remember it: The media and the police had sort of a friendly agreement on access to the blotter. I don't think the police had to provide it, but I can't think of a time when they didn't in some fashion.
i wonder how this incident will be different since the two council goverment people were there right afterwards....and do the two council people care...do other towns have police problems, i mean bloomington danville peoria..why don't we rollour own police cheifs instead of going to other towns to get them...
Anonymous 8:25: Welcome to my bandwagon. More people will be joining us soon. Find a comfortable seat.
To those of you still defending CPD: At some point in the future, I'll be serving up a big dish of I TOLD YOU SO.
Or maybe I'll wind up being totally wrong.
Stay tuned.
Anonymous *9:30*: Welcome to my bandwagon. More people will be joining us soon. Find a comfortable seat.
To those of you still defending CPD: At some point in the future, I'll be serving up a big dish of I TOLD YOU SO.
Or maybe I'll wind up being totally wrong.
Stay tuned.
R.T. Finney's response is not really responsive to any substantive issue(s). Talking about his weight does nothing to refute claims that he is incompetent. Talking about his relatives does nothing to refute claims that his department lacks transparency.
Well, the 8:58 AM anonymous took some potshots at Finney based on his weight and family, so it seems reasonable that Finney might respond to them.
i wonder how this incident will be different since the two council goverment people were there right afterwards....and do the two council people care...do other towns have police problems, i mean bloomington danville peoria..why don't we rollour own police cheifs instead of going to other towns to get them...
I don't know Gina Jackson that well, but I've been impressed by what I've seen. She and Mike LaDue responded very quickly to the situation. They clearly cared, but they were also calm and level-headed. I found this encouraging, though it's too early to know what will happen. Patricia Avery was also there, and she was quite concerned about the impact on relations between the police and the black community. This has also been picked up by local TV stations and the News-Gazette as well as IP and UCIMC, so I don't think that this will just go away.
www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2007/04/02/teens_arrest_spurs_concerns_on_excessive
If you had problems contacting me in Carbondale or Champaign then you failed to take advantage of the Carbondale media hotline updated three time per day, Police blotters for the media who required more information, the
Hi Chief, since you've entered the dialogue and responded to my assertions, allow me to address you again.
The Carbondale media hotline is rarely updated three times per day. You can call it yourself or for anyone else that is interested in calling it, the number is 618-457-3200. You'll have to go through a phone tree to get to the recordings, off hand, I believe it is 801, 802 and 803 depending on which time of time you are getting. However, the information is usually several days old and they will go several days before being updated. They are rarely updated on the weekends, and typically, if anything it mentions is a car accident. I listen to the scanners regularly and know there is much more crime in Carbondale than the one report of a car accident that usually makes it on there.
Public Information Officer assigned solely to respond to the media needs, as well as all the media having my home and cell phone number.
These people never take or return calls. Also, when they are most needed, evenings and weekends, they are completely unreachable. From my own attempts in the past, I'm usually routed to a voicemail by some gruffy voiced dispatcher with a bad attitude. I believe Ron Priddy is the representative in Carbondale right now ... if it's the same Priddy I'm thinking of, I know his ex-wife and son. Priddy has yet to ever return a phone call -- not even if it's a soft story about how drivers should prepare for holiday events (Halloween or St. Paddy's Day) by avoiding drunks on the road. Of all the police agencies in Southern Illinois -- Carbondale is by far the worst run. Kentucky, of all places, has a far superior police force. The McCracken County Sheriff's department and Paducah Police return calls promptly, they release press releases by email and fax, they also attach mug shots of the criminals. They're jails are super easy to access, and people are usually jovial to speak with on the phone.
In Champaign we also have an individual assigned to media relations as well as open police blotters.
Again, my experiences with Champaign have been otherwise. FOIAs filed in the past have gone largely ignored, and it wasn't until the use of a lawyer was threatened that calls were returned. I've been bounced between four different departments trying to get one answer -- I sincerely believe it's a stalling strategy to answer questions. Either that or the staff is inept. Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan recently announced that the police are horrible at releasing FOIAs on time, so this doesn't really surprise me. I've just noticed that between the Carbondale and Champaign police departments, both of which I have experience with, they are particularly bad. These have not been my experiences at other police departments, so I must take the common denominator.
Additionally, Mayor Brad Cole and mayoral hopeful Shiela Simon both said during a recent debate that the Carbondale police department has a horrible reputation for releasing information to the public.
No, the police blotter is not yet on the internet but we are working on creating a process to download the hundreds of pieces of information on the blog. Other agencies select what is placed on the net. We do not try to pick and choose what WE think the media is interested in, so we post everything that occurred during certain time periods. The media will then follow up with questions. At this time our records management system prevents this from occurring.
Since you gave an excuse for Champaign, allow me to address that. You make it sound very complicated, actually it's not. The Urbana police department uses the EXACT same blotter format used by the Champaign police department. Except, instead of storing them under lock and key in a media room, they provide the PDF duplicate on their Web site instantly. There is simply nothing complicated about that in any sense of the imagination, and your analysis of it spells out your failure to understand technology as common as a Xerox machine. There are no "hundreds of pieces of information" ... you made that up.
Additionally, your media blotters that you indiscriminately provide are full of errors that are not contained in the actual police report. I remember one such incident almost two years ago when a reporter at the Daily Illiini reported a murder because he copied it off the police blotter -- I'll omit his name but will give it if need be. Your blotter was inaccurate, not his reporting. So why not simply provide the police reports to the public? Why are only people with media passes allowed into a room with public information?
In addition, many of the media outlets have my cell phone number or the numbers of my Deputy Chiefs.
Could you name those media outlets, when the last times you've been called by them, by which reporter and for what story?
Also, any DI, News Gazette or broadcast reporters verify this statement?
Sir, with all do respect, you are either uninformed, misinformed, unintelligent, do not care or a combination.
I will not discuss personal family issues on this blog, would you? However, to anonymous who has met my family members who run Carbondale, I will offer this. Other than my immediate family (wife and three children) who lived there for five years and then moved to Champaign with me, my extended family never lived in Carbondale. My mother was a housewife and my father was a coal miner years ago. My father currently lives in a nursing home, but possibly you met my mother at the Heartland Regional Medical Center when she passed away there in 2004.
I remember vividly a woman coming into Heartland Regional Medical Center, it may have been in 2004 or 2003, but I talked with her about you because I saw her last name. I recall her being very sweet and polite. I thought she was your cousin or perhaps an in-law, but if it was your mother I apologize for the mistake and I offer my condolances. She was not an inpatient, so I didn't realize she was ill; there were a lot of routine procedures done there.
I will not discuss personal family issues on this blog
Then there was no need to elaborate on your family ... but I'm glad it set the record straight. Honestly, Carbondale folks say you have a very broad family in Southern Illinois that goes back pretty far and are connected to many city positions and regional infrastructure. That seems to be a sordid rumor.
Unless, it might be my daughter who is a private in the Army serving in Iraq.
Hooah to your daughter -- you can't pull that card on me though. I've served my time.
I tried to keep up the running but life seemed to get in the way, new job, move, mother passing away, teenage children, daughter going to Iraq, and just getting older, all hampered my best efforts to keep up the running. But, hey, if you are noticing my weight maybe this is the push I need. The sad reality is that this is my normal weight range. Sorry to disappoint you.
I didn't write it ... and I don't know what you look like. From the sound of the description though, it reminds me of Chicago Police Superintendent Philip J. Cline.
Sir, if things are that heavy on your mind, perhaps you should step down.
The police chief, however, answers to the community, the media, City Council and to the employees he oversees.
First and foremost, as a public servent you answer to the people. If there is confusion on which needs to be prioritized, again, you should consider stepping down.
Well, the 8:58 AM anonymous took some potshots at Finney based on his weight and family, so it seems reasonable that Finney might respond to them.
Or he could just ignore the cheap shots and respond to the more substantial claims. The fact that he chose to focus on the cheap shots tells us a little bit about his ego.
What happens when his ego takes over in other situations?
Move along, everything is just fine here:
Champaign Police Chief Defends Arrest Some are Calling Violent
Reported by: Jilyan Landon/ WCIA 3
04/02/2007 10:59pm
The Champaign police chief gave his officers a vote of confidence Monday night after an arrest some say went too far. The department says its officers didn't cross the line when they used pepper spray on a 17-year-old boy. It happened at Douglass Park Friday night. Police stopped him because it was after hours. They say he resisted, so it got physical. Witnesses complained police used too much force. Community leaders met with the department about that Monday. The police chief says his officers did nothing wrong. Chief R. T. Finney says this type of force is within police procedure when people resist arrest. The chief says he'll continue to look into the matter with his officers, witnesses and the victim. The teen was treated and released from the hospital before being taken to the jail. The police chief says there are more patrols in the Douglass Park neighborhood. He says that's because community members there have asked for them.
I agree that the Chief's top priority should be serving the needs of the residents of Champaign. I don't think the Chief sees it that way, though.
I think an accurate description of Finney is, "Political Organism". His behavior is optimized to maximize his future income, and he seems to believe that maximizing future income requires that he suck up to the right people.
I have a hard time swallowing his assertion that he aswers to his employees. Clearly, he has to earn their respect to be an effective leader. But providing them with unconditional support and a fertile environment for Groupthink doesn't seem like a good path to pursue. It probably doesn't produce respect so much as it produces ingratiation and irrational reciprocal loyalty.
Perhaps it is the case that his reward structure needs to be reengineered so that his actions are more strongly correlated with the will of the citizens rather than the will of the City Manager, News-Gazette, and so forth.
I think it's remarkable they had to mace a 17 year old teenager.
Was he the size of Stone Cold Steve Austin?
The Champaign police are not squirts themselves and probably could have grabbed the kid easily and handcuffed him. Under Finney, it's always mace first and ask questions later.
More over, why would the Chief meet with the community members before thoroughly looking into the matter? Was it the type of meeting where he just sits there at the end of a table and listens without speaking, except to give judgment at the end by saying, "I believe my cops, and not you." Does that represent thoughtfulness or understanding of the situation?
And then the kid was taken to jail -- but his only charge was resisting arrest, right? Did he do anything wrong before he was approached by the police?
I don't know how I can stress this enough that this happened all the time in Carbondale when Finney was here...
Thank You Chief Finney for responding to the blog. You have shown more self control to the Annonyomus "hit and run " posters than I would, I would urge the unnamed people involved in this incident if they have a problem with the Champaign Police they should go through the appropriate steps for an investigation, If not then shut up! When a police officer asks you to answer a question most of these punks will spew out a litany of four letter words directed to the officer involved, most of the time the bigger the audience the more intense the exchange will be. When these people are stopped the first thing they do is challenge the authority of the Police. "I wuddent doin nuthin" you run from the police you can expect to be chased and when you are caught you will be frisked and most likely you will be cuffed, not only for your own safety but the police, Lets see how this works, I'm a cop and I pull you over for lets say loud stereo or no front license plate, you get out and take off !! I don't know what you might have just done, armed robbery, murder, or any of a hundred things that people do. Most police killed are because they did not act quickly enough when dealing with this kind of situation. A poster commented this kid was only 17 years old! Big deal a 17 year old will kill you just as fast as a 57 year old. The Champaign Police Dept. is not perfect, and if people have a problem they should contact the States Attorneys office or the Illinois State Police if no local solution can be reached. By the way I am not or have I ever been a police officer. I would though like to hear from any Police officers State, County, City any other agency.
FWIW, when I've dealt with other sites that allowed anonymous posting and I had access to the IP information, I've sometimes found that when there are multiple anonymous posts attacking someone, a lot of them will come from 1-2 sources. So it initially looks like there are a lot of people who dislike the target, but it turns out that it's more like a handful of people who post repeatedly.
Gregg-
I have two words for you: Regulatory Capture. State's Attorney isn't interested in pursuing complaints against their pals. State Police won't undermine local cops unless there is a very significant event.
wayward:
If there was no default name, there would be fewer name overlaps.
Anonymos Poster f/k/a Anonymous
Why not just register for a username then? It's not rocket science and IP doesn't care if you use a free email account.
I would call what went on at 5th. and Tremont significant, These people have a grievance with the CPD let them file it . Young kids have contact with the CPD all the time this is an isolated incident. Look at a map of the Police calls in Champaign, You don't see this in SW Champaign, Why is that ? Respect for authority. It all starts in the home. Thats the same thing that's wrong with the School system in Champaign.
Oy, that sounds like work. I'll just stick with Anonymous Poster
Gregg-
I think State Police only get involved in capital crimes by police. I'm probably wrong. I think that the current regulatory scheme or checks and balances don't work. I think they actually cause this sort of mess. Something different is needed.
AP
I had multiple negative exchanges with the CPD. Generally, the Urbana and University police have been very helpful.
I've also been terribly underimpressed with both the Mayor and the Chief's ability to discuss issues of enforcement in a thoughtful, civil way. I still remember the town hall meeting where Jerry told us, "If you are respectful to the police, they will be respectful to you 90% of the time."
What is that supposed to mean? Why would anyone be satisfied with less than 100% of the time ALL the time? If I threaten the police, disarm me in a respectful way, but as civil servants under NO circumstances should a police officer treat a citizen in a disrespectful manner.
How (and why) should a policeman disarm you in a respectful way if you are threatening?
Further, if you are threatening the police, you're obviously not respecting them. Thus, the 100%-90% rule (whatever its meaning) should not apply.
If police officers approach kids in a park with an ominous, condescending, or snotty tone, the kids will probably react differently than if the officers are polite.
If the kids are impolite, the officers have the option of: 1) taking the bait (like Finney did above) or 2) continuing to be polite even though the people they are talking to do not reciprocate.
I wondered about that too - was the police officer polite when he asked the kid to stop? It really wasn't clear from the news stories what happened, and I didn't see anything other than the tail end of the arrest.
Guess just sort of illustrated the difference between Champaign police and Urbana police. Urbana officers tend to be calm, professional, and authoritative. Champaign officers tend to be unprofessional and not in control. What is the Urbana head cop like? Does anybody know? We never hear about him. But we're always hearing the name of the Champaign head cop. I wonder why that is. And why do the Champaign guys all have buzz cuts and wear little black leather gloves? Who are they pretending to be?
I think it is easy to criticize police after the fact. I will wait to see what information develops. However, police are legally authorized to use reasonable force to carry out their job and protect their lives. The issue always comes down to what is reasonable under the circumstances. I think that the residents of that area are entitled to police protection and I think it is a difficult job to pull off. Regardless of whether you believe that the police have the right to stop you or tell you what to do, you do not have the right to argue with the police, or resist the police, even if the stop was unlawful. I don't know how the police acted, so again, I will wait to see what develops, but when they are trying to break up a fight or investigate something where the individual is clearly unhappy to be involved, then I suspect everything they say and do will be construed as impolite. I believe that there are prominently posted no-trespass signs posted in all of our public parks, indicating what time people should be out of them, and there are also curfew laws which are frequently enforced to prevent all sorts of problems. And whether the person is 17 or not is really immaterial to whether the police were reasonable in using pepper spray--even a small person who is determined to not be taken into custody can put up quite a fight and injure himself or others in the process.
I believe what I wrote. Do you really not see a difference between jeopardizing the life of an innocent law-abiding citizen and a law enforcement officer?
I signed on to a job where I am well aware that I may have to lay down my own life to protect the lives of my students. Can't I ask the same commitment from police officers that I sign on to as a teacher?
Further, if you are threatening the police, you're obviously not respecting them. Thus, the 100%-90% rule (whatever its meaning) should not apply.
And I have never disrespected a law enforcement officer, nor threatened them, but that hasn't prevented them from disrespecting me. I'm just a citizen walking down the street--they are supposed to be paid professionals.
It amazes me that anyone fails to see what is wrong with the Mayor's statement. Police officers can't just injure or disrespect citizens because their feelings are hurt.
xian - we're with you on the 90% thing. that was a thoughtless, foolish, and ridiculous for mayor mumbles to say. of course police should be polite 100% of the time. the respect of the community is crucial to their task. if they go around vomiting on people, people resent them and their job is much harder. if they routinely lie, nobody trusts them.
i guess we know why they have a hard job and nobody trusts them.
back to the mayor, he's about as dim as a carbon-filament bulb in an old theatre. don't take that as a personal attack on him, ip. it's just the sad dtruth.
"The solution I proscribe is simple: Law enforcement should be paid more generously to reflect the hazardous nature of their profession. They should also be forbidden from protecting themselves through the profiling of those they choose to interact with. Their first priority must be the safety and health of those they are supposed to protect even at the potential cost of their own lives."
Why don't we just allow the police to respond to take the reports after the fact. That way they don't have to carry guns and the citizen can be responsible for protecting themselves. That way the citizens can lose their lives from criminals who also have no respect for the laws of this country. Just pay the cops the current salary and they can take the death reports after the smoke clears. In your line of thinking everyone is a winner. Cops don't have to shoot and the citizens can decide for themselves when or when not to shoot. This seems to be a great solution. If cops are the enemy then make friends with the criminals.
"back to the mayor, he's about as dim as a carbon-filament bulb in an old theatre. don't take that as a personal attack on him, ip. it's just the sad dtruth."
It is both a personal attack and untrue - the guy got elected once over a very credible opponent, and the other two times, no one else was even willing to run against him. You can't do that in a town like Champaign unless you can think.
Just because he's not an orator doesn't mean he's stupid. Judging someone's intelligence based solely on the way they talk - now that's stupid.
easy does it, ip. i'm not judging the mayor on -how- he speaks, i'm judging him by what he says and does says: cops are courteous 90% of the time (or whatever the quote was) does: smokes cigs even though he's got lung cancer etc... maybe he has no contenders because nobody wants the job. who would want to be captain of a ship that is listing badly and headed for a berg?
also, someone above claimed police treatment of xian must be due to how he treated police. that's stupid. the relationship between an officer and a citizen is not symmetric. officer has a duty of care to citizen, and citizen does not have a symmetric duty. officer is paid to take care of citizen, citizen is not paid to take care of officer.
it's like if you go to mickey d's and you make the pimply kid at the counter wait for you to decide what you want, the pimply kid would not be justified in retaliating by making you wait an equal amount of time before he punches in the order.
don't misconstrue this as me claming officers are lower on the social totem pole than others. i'd say an officer is definitely higher on the totem pole than a taxi driver. but that doesn't mean that the officer doesn't work for the taxi driver. he or she does.
also, someone above claimed police treatment of xian must be due to how he treated police. that's stupid. the relationship between an officer and a citizen is not symmetric. officer has a duty of care to citizen, and citizen does not have a symmetric duty. officer is paid to take care of citizen, citizen is not paid to take care of officer.
I can find no such comment.
However, even hostile encounters with law enforcement typically follow your ideal. Suspect shouts, "Stay back or I'll shoot my kid!" Police officer doesn't instantly shoot the suspect, nor does he shoot the kid, nor does he threaten the pair. He looks out for their safety.
"easy does it, ip. i'm not judging the mayor on -how- he speaks, i'm judging him by what he says and does says: cops are courteous 90% of the time (or whatever the quote was) does: smokes cigs even though he's got lung cancer etc... maybe he has no contenders because nobody wants the job. who would want to be captain of a ship that is listing badly and headed for a berg?"
Again, that's yet another opinion, and yet another instance where I think you're clearly wrong.
I think Champaign has never been in better shape, and the vast majority of people agree with me. In fact, the City grew by 8,000 resident from 2000-2006, during lean years for the UI, at a time when it's very easy for someone to choose St. Joe or Mahomet for a residence instead of Champaign. People are voting by where they're choosing to live, and they seem to think Champaign is doing just fine.
I think the Mayor is consistently underestimated, and he consistently displays the kind of intelligence and leadership that builds concensus and gets things done. His style wouldn't work for and doesn't sit well with everybody. But stupid? You've either not worked with him, or you're letting some sort of personal difference with him cloud your judgement.
Thought Police,
When did that scenario you described above occur? I don't remember seeing that in the news. Most of what you hear around town about Champaign Police is negative.
IP,
You're losing it. A person with lung cancer smoking? That IS stupid. Also, you're forgetting the topic of this thread: police. Mayor>City Manager>Police, so police probs = mayor probs. Mayor is not the messiah you claim him to be.
"IP,
You're losing it. A person with lung cancer smoking? That IS stupid. Also, you're forgetting the topic of this thread: police. Mayor>City Manager>Police, so police probs = mayor probs. Mayor is not the messiah you claim him to be."
You're losing it.
I've never said that the police problems weren't the Mayor's problems, too.
I've never said that the act of smoking wasn't dumb, lung cancer or no.
You've argued that the Mayor is as "dim as a carbon-filament bulb in an old theatre," and I've pointed out numerous reasons why you're wrong.
The Mayor has made mistakes. The Mayor has said and done some stupid things. But that doesn't mean he's stupid - everyone has said and done some stupid things, and overall, his record as Mayor is strong enough that no one is even willing to run against him, and that is just a small part of an overwhelming collection of evidence that Mayor Schweighart isn't stupid.
Any time you'd like to start discussing issues instead of your own wrongheaded personal attacks on the Mayor's intelligence, I'd welcome that.
What? I made no such comment. Get your stcaf straight.
If Mayor McCheese did make the 90% comment which Xian claims, I agree that he has something to be sorry for. It was a very dumb thing to say.
the relationship between an officer and a citizen is not symmetric. officer has a duty of care to citizen, and citizen does not have a symmetric duty. officer is paid to take care of citizen, citizen is not paid to take care of officer.
The officer is paid to take care of all citizens, the community as a whole, not just a single, particular one. I would think that particular actions of police might be part of a larger plan to protect the entire community.
When did that scenario you described above occur? I don't remember seeing that in the news. Most of what you hear around town about Champaign Police is negative.
I never said it occurs in Champaign, to the Champaign Police. But you're making assertions about law enforcement in general. In my experience, the CPD is similar in most ways to other police departments around the country. They don't go around hiring psychopaths as officers (granted, many might have huge inferiority complexes). I'd imagine the officers of the CPD would act like officers in other police departments.
Look, it's in the officer's best interest to respect the right's of suspects - if they don't, any defense attorney could easily have a judge throw out the arrest and all subsequent confessions and evidence.
"What? I made no such comment. Get your stcaf straight."
Well, somebody did, and I can't tell one "Anonymous" from another. I apoligize for my mistake, but my larger point stands - those that think the Mayor is stupid are wrong, and underestimating him is foolish.
That said, let's get back to the issues at hand, please.
Why don't we just allow the police to respond to take the reports after the fact. That way they don't have to carry guns and the citizen can be responsible for protecting themselves. That way the citizens can lose their lives from criminals who also have no respect for the laws of this country. Just pay the cops the current salary and they can take the death reports after the smoke clears. In your line of thinking everyone is a winner. Cops don't have to shoot and the citizens can decide for themselves when or when not to shoot. This seems to be a great solution. If cops are the enemy then make friends with the criminals.
We could also all ride ponies around town and that would have more to do with what I was talking about than your response.
I agree that it's not really worthwhile to under or overestimate the mayor. I just think he's a nasty man who quickly becomes hostile and abusive towards those whom he disagrees with--often times in ways that are detrimental to all of his constitutents--whether they agree with him or not.
I agree with much in the thread, including that one of the most basic reasons why police should be professional and respectful toward the citizens they come in contact with is for their own safety. Taking procautions and being armed may increase the polices' ability to do their jobs, but being disrespectful and condescending to people in general, especially youths of color just serves to aggravate existing hostility, and make their own jobs more difficult with no conceivable gain save the indulging of one's own personal desire to be insulting to others.
Is it too late to discuss this question: given that the park and the community center may have different closing times (park closes at dusk, which at some points in the year is as early as 5:00, while community center generally closes at 9:00), how do police/park district accomodate those citizens who wish to cut through the park to get to their home or the place they're supposed to go when the community center closes after dusk? (I haven't driven around up there to see what sidewalks are like on all four sides of this park.)
I thought about having the community center issue passes, much like what we use in school. But that could be construed as patronizing, leads to other issues like fake passes, what about staff refusing to give out passes, etc.
What if citizens were allowed a set period of time (10-15 mins.) to cut through the park after the community center closed? What rules/procedures would be needed and how could these be communicated to citizens and enforced?
Any other ideas?