On the morning of Thursday, June 26, 2007, i spent 3 hours riding along with an Urbana Police Officer. Unfortunately, i am bad with names on the first time meeting.
Before we left the station, he gave me a form to sign. This was a no-hold harm waiver. I was informed that i was taking my life into my hands by doing this ride-along and that i would agree to not hold the Department responsible if i was hurt, shot, or killed during the time i was with the officer. I read it over, signed it, and turned it over to the department secretary.
We then went down to the basement where i was given a vest. I guess this was semi-bullet proof. Of we went. His beat was mostly Southeast Urbana, closest to the SunnyCrest area, and the Scottswood area as well. From what i saw in the Scottswood area troubled me. There was a call of a kid walking back and forth in front of someones residence. Even though the kid was just taking a walk, someone called the police. Even though the kid was not doing any harm, one has to wonder, Why the hell is this kid walking the streets without any adult supervision? We then got a call about a runaway in the area. We found the girl that fit the description that we were given. However, she was not a runaway. Apparently, her "friend" was the run-away and her friend threatened to beat up this other girl. She asked the Officer and the Sgt. as well to arrest her or put the cuffs on her to make it appear that she was being arrested. From what i learned, it is a badge of honor to be arrested in some neighborhoods. How sad! I always thought and still think that it would be humiliating to be carried out in handcuffs in front of everyone! If the folks are not carried out in handcuffs or arrested while they are cursing at the police, they are looked upon as snitches and wimps. I was then informed that i should not be alarmed if residents are hostile to us. The officer gave everyone a friendly wave, and yet received verbal abuse and middle fingers. He said that he was told by some of the residents that it was not a personal thing but a survival tool! If they are not seen as hostile to the police, they are treated with suspicion as a narc or "sellout." When i asked if having African American officers patrol the black neighborhoods would help out, he said that it would be worse for them. The Black officers are first seen as someone that criminals can strike deals with because, "its a brother." However, when the officer upholds the law, they are called "race traitors, Uncle Toms, etc." From what i saw, the black community was not being terrorized at all by the Urbana Police Department, but many law-abiding members of the Black Community came up and were extremely friendly and were asking for more help to deal with the gangbangers, drug dealers, and other thugs.
We then dealt with a dispute about a fight that got physical. The officer talked it over with the two sides and it became resolved without any arrests or handcuffs being used.
The next event really showed me what a cop goes through. We received a report that an ex-employee of the Freedom station on Vine Street threatened to rob the place. We speed to the area, and i started to tense up. I became utterly afraid that the alleged robber had a gun. I quickly prayed that it was just a threat. Fortunately he was not there. I pray that he is caught!
Police go through that feeling everyday. For that split moment, i knew what it was like for an officer.
Afterwords, we went to lunch at Skullies on Washington and Cottage Grove. Great place, i recommend it to everyone!
From what i experienced, i can say with full confidence that this civilian review board and the constant bashing of the police from the Far-Left is hogwash. The Urbana Police Department is not a racist death squad, nor are other police dpts! The fact that there are more police in black neighborhoods maybe because of the simple fact that more crimes are committed in black neighborhoods. Also, it is other black folks who call the police, not racist white people. I am going to challenge Charlie Whyte,
Danielle Chenowyth, Robert Lewish, Dennis Roberts, Brandon Bowersox, and Mayor Prussing to go on a ride-along with the same department that they say how much they love and respect, yet want to restrict them!
With that, because of what i experienced yesterday morning, i am in full opposition to any "civilian review board" and stand behind to the fullest extent the brave men and women
of the Urbana Police Department!
Robert Dunn
"From what i experienced, i can say with full confidence that this civilian review board and the constant bashing of the police from the Far-Left is hogwash."
Yes, your three-hour tour makes you the nation's leading expert on any matter relating to the police."
so, would you rather have had Mr. Dunn stay the entire day and night with the UPD!
my point is that one trip with an officer is not much data from which to make large generalizations
I don't see how a civilian review board restricts the officers in any way, unless you mean it restricts them from doing unethical conduct, which I don't really see as a bad thing. I doubt the board will get much use, but the option should be there for the citizens who have genuine complaints.
Was the officer David Roesch? I sometimes read the police reports, and that one seems to match.
Well at least Mr. Dunn is doing more than these anonymous posters, He is going with the Police to see what a few hours in the "Hood" is like for the Police. Policeman, Social Worker, Mediator, maybe "Zookeeper" should be added to the list of things Cop are called, because that is what the SE part of Urbana is becoming, A zoo inhabited by animals!.. no wait animals do not act like that!
this thread is in great peril of open racism
In great peril? If that comment from Gregg (big surprise) is not open racism, I don't know what is.
What to suggest to someone brave enough to spout Aryan Nation propaganda on a web? Oh, here's an idea. How 'bout Gregg goes down into "the hood" and starts talking that crap on a street corner. Or better yet, maybe Gregg should show up at Sunday services and asking for equal time to let everyone in "the hood" know that they are worse than animals.
Unfortunately I doubt someone like Gregg has the courage of convictions in that way. Much safer to hide behind a quasi-anonymous screen name when spewing hate.
I meant the whole thread. It begins with massive generalizations about black behavior
"Well at least Mr. Dunn is doing more than these anonymous posters, He is going with the Police to see what a few hours in the "Hood" is like for the Police. Policeman, Social Worker, Mediator, maybe "Zookeeper" should be added to the list of things Cop are called, because that is what the SE part of Urbana is becoming, A zoo inhabited by animals!.. no wait animals do not act like that!"
I live in SE Urbana, thank you very much.
While there is a lot of very minor crime in the area, it's certainly not a zoo nor are the residents animal-like, and characterizing them as such is disgusting and completely ridiculous.
Sheesh.
What about the shooting and open drug selling in the Scottswood area??? Home invasions?burglary? To Anon 3:55 I doubt that any of these gang bangers are going to any "Sunday Services" It's a small percentage of the population that's doing 90% of the crime!!
A friend of mine went into SE Urbana and never came back -- I think there are werewolves in Meadowbrook Park, and Stone Creek is a nightmare!!!
No doubt Robert Dunn will now go visit the family of the inmate who was tortured with a tazer last year. After that stop he could actually get out of the car and ask the "black community" why they are giving verbal abuse to the cop, instead of taking the cops word for it.
We'll humbly await the results of this "fair and balanced" analysis of the relations between police and the community.
Wendy, it was not David Roasch! It was another officer with the first name of Dean.
Gordy, i was actually surprised to hear from the officer that the Circle K and the CVS stores on the corner of Philo and
Colorado has been robbed multiple times. The area that we first went to were apartments that the County Mental Health Board contracts with. The complaint was of a guy, (older white guy) stealing a neighbors flowerpots.
I disagree with the calling of SE Urbana a zoo! SE Urbana has its problems, but its not the hellhole that Scottswood
and Lakeside Terrace is. If Gregg is talking about Zookeepers, i guess he is referring to the government agencies
that run these "low-income" housing projects.
By the way Anonymous, your writing sounds quite familiar with Brian Dolinars anti-cop screed. But anyway, i do
not plan to go anywhere near that cesspool, without armed protection like a police officer. So, no, i will not ask
why some thug is flipping the bird to Urbana's finest! What about the disrespect shown to black officers. One
of those officers came from Scottswood, grew up there!
Three hours was all that they alloted me for that time. I was told i can do more ride alongs in the future.
No, three hours is not a lot. Perhaps i should become an officer and live with that fear every day that i come to work.
Some of you Anonymous posters need to get your ideological blinders off and realize that the police are here to protect and help us. Ask the law-abiding African Americans how they feel about the police, nothing but positive notes! I will ask and talk to those who are law-abiding but to those thugs who are the real ones terrorizing the black communities and other communities as well. I have nothing but contempt for them!
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Robert Dunn
Ex-Leftist, Born-Again Conservative American
I do commend you for at least taking three hours out to observe, even if your observation appears to have been filtered by your political agenda.
But three hours is far superior to none.
As someone who spent 2400 hours last year in a community like the one you describe, I think your characterizations of far-left impressions of police and your generalizations of "law-abiding" African Americans are not constructive. I leave it to others to decide if it is "racist" or not. I'm not really interested in such labelling.
What I can say is that it is despicable to label any African American who doesn't trust law enforcement as "non-law abiding". It's also hilarious that you would use your three hours plus your life in Urbana to generalize as to the honorable nature of law enforcement bodies EVERYWHERE.
Have you bothered to read about the current issues with the Chicago Police Department? They sure seem to suggest the utility of a citizens' review board.
Furthermore, your "there's crime in black neighborhoods, that's why there's arrests in black neighborhoods" arguments aren't supported by data of any sort. Policing has been historically worse in such neighborhoods, and the disparity in arrests since the inception of the drug war has a lot more to do with the nature of enforcement and the techinicalities of the laws.
If you are interested, here is an article from last week's Trib (hardly a bastion of liberal media):
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-drugs_bd22jul22,1,5791395.story?track=rss
hello, Chicago and Urbana are too different scenarios! Chicago is the 3rd largest city in the US. Urbana is smaller than some of the suburbs!
Stop comparing Urbana to cities like New York and Chicago, they are not the same at all. I can walk from my residence to downtown Urbana, Chicago and New York would be a different story.
You can call me racist! Go ahead! I am one of the few Americans out there who are not intimidated by the abuse of the "R" word. The fact that you see race in everything makes you a racist. I go by Dr. Martin Luther Kings ideas of treating people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. When folks commit crimes, they should do the time, no matter what race, income level, or whatever characteristic that identity politics fanatics come up with!
I know its cliche amongst so-called educated people to get worked into a frenzy about "white privilege", however, the more crying wolf about phony PC "racism" goes on, the actualy racists are going to win, because the mainstream of society will have gotten so sick and tired of racism cries that the real thing will be ignored! God help us when that day comes!
oh wait, its already here, but its ok to be racist as long as its against middle class straight white males. If they are from the South and are a Roman Catholic or Evangelical, you get more points for your elitist form of prejudice. Everyone loves to laugh at "Redneck" jokes and its ok to mock born-again Christians, however, you mock the Rutgers womens basketball team like when Don Imus got in trouble,.. well... you know what happened to him. But, the folks who mock middle class Christians get away with it because they are the mainstream media. Ted Turner can say that Christianity is for losers but Don Imus gets kicked off the air for a tasteless joke. Give me a break!
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Robert Dunn
Ex-Leftist, Born-Again Conservative American
Robert, Ease up. It's a well written and factual article and drug problems are the same no matter where you go. The reasons that areas like SE Urbana are more obvious is that they are a little more violent and the dealing tends to happen more openly than in "whiter" areas. Those areas tend to get more 911 calls and therefore more attention. There is no need in this thread to inject racism or any kind of invective like you just gave forth. Years ago under Barry McCaffrey (an idiot by all definitions) the national office of drug control policy changed their efforts from interdiction at the primary source to following links and networks and instead pursuing street level users and dealers. Since then drug arrests have skyrocketed and our jails have filled to capacity. What would have happened had we continued shooting down traffickers and burning coca fields? There would have been less product available on the streets. Under Bill Clinton and McCaffrey the price of a kilo of cocaine went from $26K to $13K. It wasn't due to a drop in demand. In our current law enforcement climate there are only a limited number of eavesdrop warrants and other tools available to investigators. It is much harder to catch dealers who are not working out in the open. So where do you think the police are going to concentrate their efforts? If you answered "where the residents complain more and the activity is more visible", you win a cookie. But that doesn't mean it isn't happening in Suburban white neighborhoods. It just means the police don't have an overt reason to look there and whites aren't getting caught.
Wow. I can't believe I almost completely agree with Prairie Biker on this. Wow. Who knew the day would come?
PB - you hit the nail on the head, except for one thing. I believe the police departments do profile. They don't do it because they are a bunch of redneck racists who sit around sipping coffee and declaring "let's go arrest some black fellas!". The do it because they have seen the crime in those areas so many times their "spidey sense" starts to tingle when they see certain invididuals who "fit the profile". It only takes one kid with a G-Unit shirt and a Sox hat getting busted to make all the rest look suspicious.
And yet we know the suburban kids have more money, are usually way more bored, and tend to be more nefarious than their black peers. They do more drugs than their black peers. But they (mostly) aren't doing the time.
My opinion is that the drug laws need to be drastically changed. A kid shouldn't do ten years on an intent-to-deliver charge when a rapist can get 5-7. It's insane. If you want a place to start, look a those drug laws.
I didn't say they don't profile. That would be a ridiculous claim. Cops know how to make an easy catch and some people just make it so obvious for them. I'll give you kids a hint: turn down the sub-woofer, go back to your stock rims, fix your turn signals and for crissakes! Use Them!
Believe me, I'm with you on drug laws too. There is no good reason for violent offenders to get less time.
Anon 9:07 says"They do more drugs than their black peers. But they (mostly) aren't doing the time." Would you care to back that statement up with some FACTS ????
Some facts:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00.htm#P54_1086
It's from 2000, long, and I haven't read the whole thing, but it took me about 5 minutes on Google to find that.
narc,
of course much of that same info was contained in the article that xian posted. but I was just too frustrated to repeat (for the 10th time) "did you read the article???"
Apologies, I didn't see the link.
Incidentally, the reason why I brought CPD into it was this passage:
The Urbana Police Department is not a racist death squad, nor are other police dpts!
Somehow you decided that it was a good idea to not only extrapolate from three hours, about the entire Urbana law enforcement situation, but also to the ENTIRE world. The irony is that while we can certainly agree that there are probably zero American police departments that are "racist death squads", there are certainly PDs on the face of the Earth that fit that description well. And I don't see that a PD has to be a racist death squad before there is oversight, so once again, you are strawmanning.
On the issues of race:
Yes, yes. Accusing a straight white dude makes someone a racist. Or in my case, not accusing a straight white dude of being a racist makes one a racist. I guess even talking to a straight white dude makes me a racist. Of course he follows with an whole paragraph of strawmanning, unless I'm suddenly Ted Turner's legal guardian.
One wonders how the "real racists" will ever be brought to justice before they "win", oh yeah, I forgot, they aren't straight white dudes. I need to read through Dr. King's works again. But hey, it's hardly surprising, I do find it amusing that you would be the one to inject your race, gender and sexual orientation into the discussion to score points. I had made no assumptions about any of those. But hey, you know how it is with these straight white males "playing the race card".
What I can't get over is that I can post links to address issues that you are going to bring up before you even bring it up and you still go nuts on me.
Oh well, thanks for trying PB.
xian... thanks for the Chicago Tribune link. Got me out of my blogger's block: Not So "Black" Market
Lots of interesting information on the war on drugs from various macro and mircoscopic perspectives. Lots of disheartening information on the racial and economic disparities in the U.S. It seemed to help support parts of both sides of the debate on why the disparity in drug offenses exist. It was definitely worth the read.
--
Glock21 Op/Ed
narc,
no apology needed. that little chide was really directed at gregg.
Maybe Champaign County and especially Urbana should have a "Consent Decree" for this drug scum, Every time a Black is arrested a White should also be locked up to keep it fair, Also the so called war on drugs is a joke! How many people are employed in this "business" Cops, drug dealers, correctional officers, and let's not forget all the lawyers who are getting rich defending this scum, and the politicians that are turning away from the real cause of this problem. Here is a new idea, How about stopping this at the border or better yet going where the drugs originate??, Afganistan, Turkey, Central America? People say change the law, or we need more laws, We have laws now that are not being enforced.
i agree! Good luck stopping it at the border though. Liberals dont want border security because its another potential "victim" group they can exploit and use for potential votes, thus boosting the Democrats. Most, though not all Republicans, oppose border security because its a form of cheap labor. Unless your a Republican from a border state or actually have any convictions, your not going to find many politicians wanting to secure the border. As for racism, i think you can get rid of actual racism, not the phony "institutionalized racism'" that some group of radical academics came up with sipping a Soy milk Latte, you just judge people by their character and not the color of their skin. Before 1964, that belief made you a liberal, you still go by that principle of individual merit, you are a conservative! I guess Dr. King would be a conservative now.
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Robert Dunn
Ex-Leftist, Born-Again Conservative American
Wow, I really had no idea that there were people who bought those right wing fabrications of Dr. King. Please try to read his works once in a while, and no I don't mean sounds bites of "I have a dream".
Just because you want to be good at Calculus doesn't make it so, nor does wanting to be color blind make it so. Some folks are "color blind" and others are "color stupid".
I also think it's funny that you would marginalized working class African Americans as latte sipping coffee shop revolutionaries. Please get out and meet some people from different backgrounds, living in different areas, read some books, and do so more than on a protected three hour tour.
Personally, I don't want border security because I don't believe in our current citizenship system. Once it is changed, then I would be more likely to support security measures. I would like to see a citizenship system that supports a society based on merit, not on the accidental happenstances of birth.
But hey, go back to waving around MLK's corpse like a flag if you want.
Xian,
you sound like an elitist snob.
hey Xian, i never said that "working -class African-Americans" were sipping lattes in a coffee shop some where. If they were, they were not working class. You should read
Mason Weavers, "Its Ok to Leave the Plantation" to get a better sense of what im talking about. Too many minorities have bought into the lie that they can not do anything without the new Slaveowners help. This new slaveowner is the overseer of the poverty plantation called the welfare state. These overseers take many forms, including, social workers, the government run public schools, lawyers, and others who all are in sink with the liberal agenda and the Democratic Party, whose main job is to keep people in poverty by making them dependent on Master Uncle Sam for their livelyhoods. Rather than teach people in the ghettoes, reservations, projects, etc. skills necessary to be independent and financially self-sufficient, we have created a system that keeps poor people thinking that there is no hope outside of government. This way, they are able to come crawling back to the slaveowner and be "taken care of." I lived in a neighborhood where that mentality was everywhere. I decided that i wanted it no more and when i have kids, i will inculcate them with the fear of want and that if you want something, you have to either work for it, or give of yourself in exchange for it. Nothing in life is for free! Those big-bad CEOs got to where they are because they worked their rear-ends off, sometimes with sleepless days to get somewhere.
Its called freedom, with freedom, comes a little inquality, with full equality, you have absolutely no freedom. I want freedom in its fullest. The freedom to govern oneself is the ultimate freedom!
Either ignore and ridicule me for my proclaiming the truth, or actually chew on the words that i have written! However, as a book that is slowly being banned across secular America says, "You shall hear the truth, and the truth shall set you free!"
Robert Dunn
Ex-Leftist, Born-Again Conservative American
*Sigh*
Where all all the people like me that fall between Xian and Robert. Both of you are drinking too much of your respective kool-aid
Sigh, too many "moderates" who do not want to stand on any convictions! These are the worst! At least Xian and Robert are standing on their convictions! Where are yours?
SAMPLE SIZE IS INSUFFICIENT TO DRAW **ANY** CONCLUSIONS.
I am an elitist snob of sorts. I think that an informed, multi-perspective integrating opinion is worth more than a "my mommy thinks I'm special" opinion. I think that spending a thousand hours somewhere is worth more than 20 minutes.
Robert, I've tried to chew on your wild generalizations and nasty caricatures of people who give their lives for the betterment of others who don't embody any of your generalizations. I just don't get much out of it. The death of hope that you refer to is apparent to any idealistic, head-in-the-clouds liberal in the first five minutes they spend actually working in the environments we are currently discussion.
Some adjust and learn and continue to help even though it's hard. Others get bitter and nasty and become "born-again conservatives".
Living your life for the betterment of others...sounds like part of a job description for a police officer.
80% percent of police officers die within the first 5 years of retirement.
80% percent divorce rate (but watch out, they drop to a tiny 75% divorce rate for the second marriage!!!)
Works on all holidays, birthdays, kids baseball games, or any other day that they might find special for any number of personal reasons.
Mandatory equipment to start shift - bulletproof vest, gun, extra ammunition
Oh, and by the way - this year is on the path to being a record breaking year for the number of officers killed in the line of duty...
http://www.nleomf.com/media/pdf/MidYearDeathReport_2007.pdf
Here are 2005 stats (2006 are unavailable):
55 law enforcement officers were killed in 53 separate incidents.
67 law enforcement officers died as the result of accidents that occurred in the line of duty.
1,882 federal law enforcement officers were assaulted; 309 of these officers were injured, and 1 was killed.
The FBI collected assault data from 10,032 law enforcement agencies that provided service to 221 million persons (74.6 percent of the Nation’s population). (Based on Table 63.)
The law enforcement agencies that reported assault data to the FBI employed 485,048 sworn officers. Of these, 57,546 were assaulted while performing their duties.
The rate of assaults was 11.9 per 100 sworn officers.
There were 15,763 assaults on officers that resulted in injuries.
Your point being? Let's see some statistics for miners, ironworkers, etc.
Cops are no heroes - they're just schlubs who couldn't find gainful employment elsewhere.
Anon 11:50, I hope you remember that if YOU ever need a Cop!
"you sound like an elitist snob."
Unnecessary.
"Others get bitter and nasty and become "born-again conservatives"."
Also unnecessary.
i'd love to see a source for those astounding police statistics.
there oare other numbers out there, such as on the divorce one:
There are many "myths" concerning the divorce rates in certain
professions. For example, according to this site -
http://www.heavybadge.com/wives.htm -"Divorce rates among law
enforcement personnel parallel those of other high-stress professions
such as doctors and lawyers. Surveys of police officers continually
reflect estimates of divorce rates as high as 75%!" (see also
members.aol.com/lrfuzz1/mainpage.html, search for divorce on the page
). However, according to most researches conducted and mentioned in
Kappeler, V., M. Blumberg, and G. Potter. 2000. The Mythology of Crime
and Criminal Justice. Chapter 10: Battered and blue crime fighters:
Myths and misconceptions of police work. Prospect Heights, IL:
Waveland Press: 197-213, "police officers have a divorce rate that is
no higher than the national average" (source:
http://www.policestudies.eku.edu/POTTER/Lesson13.htm)
Anony: so you think that Cops are like our troops, too stupid to know whats good for them right? Our troops don't know what they are doing, so they join the services because they have no other option. Cops can't get meaningful employment? A lot of them find there jobs very meaningful. Plus, your pay starting in most dpts starts at $45K. Better than most jobs with benefits i can say. I pray that this anonymous poster is NEVER a victim of a crime, because i don' t think that an officer responding to you would be as meaningful as other jobs! I am not implying that our troops are stupid, I'll leave that to John Kerry and AWARE to say that! Our cops and troops are not stupid and they made a meaningful choice in deciding to defend our country and streets from international and domestic scum. I give them my salute, respect, and honor.
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Robert Dunn
Ex-Leftist, Born-Again Conservative American
The quality of discourse in this thread is disappointing
The options for ordering postings are not working
What is interesting here is that Robert Dunn seems to be the biggest elitist of them all. Lots of books we need to read, lefties just don't get it. Implied in almost all of his comments and even his original post is that other people are not capable of seeing the truths that he sees. His dismissive attitude and quick namecalling toward anyone who disagrees seems like another example of elitism.
Or maybe I am misunderstanding what an "elitist" actually is. Is that term reserved only for people who lean left on the political spectrum? 'Cause I gotta tell you, Mr. Dunn - you are the one who is quick to insult the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you.
"The options for ordering postings are not working"
They're working for me. Send me an email and I'll see if I can figure out what's wrong.
Dear Anon 10:24, "i'd love to see a source for those astounding police statistics." The source for the bottom half of the stats is the FBI Uniformed Crime Report. The most recent report is from 2005. The link is attached above. I would say those stats are pretty solid. As for the others you cite on Heavybadge.com - their sample was 110 officers. Not exactly overwhelmingly large. "SUBJECTS The names of 110 retired police officers were chosen at random from a mailing list maintained by the benefit fund of the Police Benevolent Association. Each retired officer was mailed a copy of both the Satisfaction Predication Scale and the Satisfaction questionnaire. A cover letter was included explaining the nature of the research, and instructing the officer to answer the questions on the Prediction Scale as they would have prior to having retired. Although not done intentionally, it should be noted that all names from the list were men. This probably reflects the smaller number of female police officers on the force. " Here are other links for you to look at: http://www.police-dynamics.com/divorce.html http://www.tearsofacop.com/police/articles/constant.html http://www.tearsofacop.com/police/articles/constant.html http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,284336,00.html http://timesfreepress.com/absolutenm/templates/content_no_ads.aspx?articleid=10053&zoneid=39 http://www.mentalhealthworld.org/45SEW.htm Sorry
This is a stupid thing to say. There are too many people unwilling to compromise. That's the problem. Everyone has convictions, but too many people are too damn stubborn and they think that compromise is a weakness. Compromise is what makes the world go round. Either grow up and realize it or continue down your stubborn path to nowhere.
I agree. Being a Police Officer is a tough job. However, often successful oversight is something that makes a tough job easier. I sure wish we had more effective oversight in my profession.
So I don't disagree with a single thing that was posted about the general heroism of police officers. That doesn't change the fact that there are some serious potentials for abuses of power, and that doesn't change whether folks on this particular site or place are likely to be subject to such abuses or not.
I looked into law enforcement and passed the firefighters test. I just decided that my skills better fit the need in the teaching profession.
often successful oversight is something that makes a tough job easier
Interesting theory. Care to provide examples? Has No Child Left Behind made your job easier?
often successful oversight is something that makes a tough job easier
Interesting theory. Care to provide examples? Has No Child Left Behind made your job easier?
NCLB isn't exactly a shining example of successful oversight...
Xian,
I get what you are saying about successful oversight., I really do. I will say that I am even in favor of it in general terms. Allow me to say this. Just because there is oversight in general doesn't mean that it will be successful. This board is going to live or die by the quality of the members, espcecially since very few if any will have ANY sort of experience even semi-close to law enforcement (since former cops/judges are prohibited from serving on the board) If they are biased one way or another, it will kill this thing
It will be especially bad if they go on a witch hunt for cop's jobs. This is what will happen: The police officers will mistrust everyone as a result, circle the wagons more tightly, and definately won't be easily approachable by the city staff or police command. Also, most of the young and/or bright (read as easily able to find employment elsewhere!) will leave for "greener pastures" - which will likely include present command staff. Maybe that will be Champaign PD, maybe Uof I PD, maybe leave the area all together.
What that will leave you with is the more problematic employees who are less bright and less motivated. Proactive styles of police will decrease, crime very well might increase as a result. And finally, Urbana PD probably will have some difficulties in recruiting new officers. The only people that might be applying would be the ones that are unemployable elsewhere.
I sure hope that they pick the right people for this board. It could get really ugly in Urbana really quick...
Reboot your computer.
NCLB is an example of what happens when a bi-partisan group of people with no acquaintance with educational research get together and fabricate a series of measures with no consultation with anyone involved in education, including the served population, and then the existing administration turns it into an unfunded mandate.
It's basically the equivalent into CU passing a solar power only order and then not giving you any assistance in becoming compliant.
Obviously there is a risk involved. The type of mistrust between police and citizens you describe is exactly what already exists between large portions of the minority communities and law enforcement without the board. It's already a problem. If that doesn't bother law enforcement, the city leadership or you or I, that says more about us than anything.
Rather than vilifying those who have had experiences that would lead any reasonable person to share their position, now is the time for the police department to sit down with the community and without condescension or marginalization, work with all elements to create a system of accountability that protects police who serve and protect heroically.
With effort and vigilance on both sides, I think there's a good chance that we can get "successful oversight".
You wrote:
NCLB is an example of what happens when a bi-partisan group of people with no acquaintance with educational research get together and fabricate a series of measures with no consultation with anyone involved in education, including the served population, and then the existing administration turns it into an unfunded mandate.
I read:
CPRB is an example of what happens when a partisan group of people with no acquaintance with law enforcement get together and fabricate a series of measures with almost no consultation with anyone involved in law enforcement, including the served population, and then the existing administration turns it into a taxpayer funded mandate.
Wow, beat me to the punch. Better written then I would have been able to though...
Sometimes it just comes easy
Xian, what's up? Any rebut? I think I made a good point, tell me where I'm wrong plz...I enjoy the back and forth
That's easy.
For starters, the CPRB, as proposed, is an oversight committee that would investigate complaints only, and point out when something goes wrong, with the assumption that normally things are going fine. If no one calls it, it sits silently.
NCLB, on the other hand, is a system that makes positive action requirements and sets quotas. NCLB doesn't sit silently, it administers tests yearly to check up on the quotas. As such, it's coming from a 180 degrees different direction.
In order for the CPRB to be similar to NCLB, it would need to set quotas for reduction in crimes, with a sanctions-backed goal (forced quota) of having ZERO crime in the twin cities by 2015. As NCLB was written by people lacking all math skills (one wonders how they would fare on the math portion of the test, but that's another thread) we'd need to have that built in.
As there's not really any good way to measure "lack of crime," other than arrests, the quotas would likely turn to a number of arrests (show we're getting crime off the streetz!!1!1!!!) or convictions. More arrests, means we're taking care of crime and the cops are doing their jobs, see? If no one gets arrested, well, clearly we don't need police so they can all be fired.
Endlessly increasing arrests, of course, even if you assume that it could get rid of all crime, eventually the town would have no crime and there'd be no need for arrests. But if we're mimicking NCLB, that part would be conveniently glossed over. It's the lack of math skills again.
Of course, your average cop on the beat likely has adult math skills, and will quickly notice that to have an increase in arrests yearly (as he would have to do, otherwise he'd be punished with a reduction in pay or possibly fired outright) you can either slack off in the early years, letting crime run a bit wild so establish a good "underachiever" profile he can improve upon for accolades later, OR just ramp up crazy on the arrests later, arresting anyone who looks at him funny, to get the numbers up, again to avoid punishment. Heaven forbid the guy be assigned to EITHER a district where there already IS very little crime (they're not needed), or one with incorrigible mafia dons (they can't do the job fast enough), because those outliers don't help him win the punishment game.
Cities that DO have a big crime problem would probably not make the quota metrics fast enough, and so they would have their funding cut, leading to less cops on the street and the elimination of their cop cars, swat vehicles, body armor, whatever. They're not performing well, so we must punish them, you know?
But happily, police review boards are nothing like that. They only sit and listen to complaints, when called. No metrics, no quotas. The assumption is that they will not be called often, and when they are, they are looking at one specific case only.
Akibare:
You are assuming that the board will sit by silently until called. My assumption is that no board, especially one that starts with the sense of indignation and righteousness of his one will sit by and let itself be silent. There are all kinds of issues that can, and I expect will, be made political hay of. Therein lays the heart of some people's concerns. A CPRB in some form or another is, on its face, a sound concept that no one will disagree with (for instance Champaign has said no to a CPRB, but not to some type of oversight group). However expect the Urbana board to use their new found powers to start collecting all kinds of race and neighborhood based stats, which will soon be followed by all kinds of quick pronouncements about how all of their suspicions (as opposed to prejudices, since the city leaders will assiduously seek out people that don’t already have biases) of race/age/sex/sexual preference/income/blah blah blah enforcement biases are being exhibited by the bad old prejudiced cops. Most of the assumptions will be superficial at best, pointing at raw numbers as solid proof. This is what they do now for the most part--more blacks are arrested, therefore cops are biased against blacks. This is not the kind of sociological math that passes actual muster. Some people do attempt to answer the deeper and more difficult questions around race and crime stats, but that is difficult and complex with few comfortable answers.
Social activists of any stripe will find a way to be active. Like any other group they support and inflate each other’s thinking and reduce the individual’s willingness to explore other points of view or conflicting facts.
Dane: We can agree that there are no quotas of arrests, yes? That alone makes it a far cry from the "the same thing as NCLB." That's my point, responding to the claim that they are the same type of thing.
Everything I've heard of citizen police review boards, anywhere I've heard of them, indicates that yes, in fact, the point of them is to sit there and WAIT to be called. Certainly, you might have some citizens who are wanting to call it all the time, and keep it very busy, but the point of the board is to answer requests, not to have arrest quotas or insist on bringing crime down or what have you. Even if you abuse the heck out of it, it's not the same sort of thing as NCLB.
There certainly are a lot of assumptions about what a board in OMG Urbanaaa!!11!! will do, I'll grant you that. I wonder if they are similar to the old "Urbana is anti-business" chestnut.
It's a great point that there is no difference between an oversight community and a complete overhaul of a system. Also it's a brilliant point that an unfunded mandate is the same thing as a taxpayer funded mandate. It's the same way that it's no different between whether I treat you to dinner and I stiff you with the bill. It's also a great point that a board consisting of citizens would have no citizen representation on it. Good one. If you really couldn't have said it any better yourself, and you were beat to the punch, that says something. There's people who consider issues and propose concrete solutions to existing problems, and then there's people who consider themselves clever for making illogical arguments behind the screen of the internet.
There's people who consider issues and propose concrete solutions to existing problems, and then there's people who consider themselves clever for making illogical arguments behind the screen of the internet using the screen name anonymous. (bold added)
Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, this is pot.
For what its worth, I don't think the analogy between a CPRB and NCLB is a good one.
Yes, they should wait to be called. My point is, don't expect crusdaers to be patient. I could be proved wrong here...but I doubt it.
For what its worth, I don't think the analogy between a CPRB and NCLB is a good one.
They both have 4 letters.