Open Thread (9/12/2007)

Granted this is all about downtown, but I find it odd that they're lecturing people about not getting sidewalks shoveled when the town was snowed in last winter when my streets were impassable for about 2 days and I couldn't leave my house at the same time. 

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j
Part-Time Pundit

It does seem unreasonable to demand that people clear sidewalks if a snowplow has just dumped a few feet of snow on it.

It doesn't seem at all unreasonable to expect people to remove snow from their sidewalks, even if a snowplow has dumped more on it, which seems more mythic than real if the last big storm was any indication.  If you are a business owner, you can't just cry that that mean old city workers have dumped more snow in front of your business - you have to get rid of it, or no one will be able to come to your store.  And as for the residential areas of town, just about everywhere has a grass apron between the street and the sidewalk, where the snow would be plowed to...if the city actually plowed the streets all the way to the curb, which they don't, at least not in most residential areas.

If someone can't leave their house for two days, wouldn't that be the perfect opportunity to shovel their sidewalks?  I'm assuming that the snow wasn't piled six feet high in front of all of your home's doors, and first floor windows.  Also, people talk about how hard it is for elderly people to shovel their walks - ok, fair enough, but how about how hard it is for them to navigate down all the other sidewalks that still have snow on them, or in the street with cars going by?  This always seemed like a question of common courtesy to me.  If there are two feet of snow in front of your house, does the mailman still deliver if you don't have a box at the street?

When I lived other places there were snow removal laws, and no one complained - but the real reason why most people removed both their snow and the ice that came with melting and refreezing was that people were responsible for the area in front of their houses, and if people fell, they would be liable.  Just out of curiosity, does anyone here get sued injuries that happen when people slip on their sidewalks?  If not, is the homeowner still liable, and just isn't sued because people haven't gotten to that level of litigiousness here?

D-man, thank you for illustrating the nanny aspects of government.  I don't need the city council or anyone else telling me how I should be spending my time.  Last time I checked, it's a free country.  But again, if they city can't be bothered to plow the 2 feet of snow in the street, why should I be expected to raise out there to shovel two feet off the sidewalk? 

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j
Part-Time Pundit

I believe there used to be a liability to homeowners only if they attempted to clean their walk and did a poor job (which actually encouraged people to not attempt to clear the walk at all).  However, I think special legislation was passed to exempt such homeowners from liability now.

My apologies to Oil Man--I meant to direct my last comment to D-Man.

Do people get sued for 46 million dollars for losing a pair of pants, the answer is yes? In this case I think it depends on how much money you have and/or how much the person has been hurt. The city attorney provided information that said that you "usually" wouldn't be sued, so who knows. I think its something that can happen not likely to someone of little means. I think someone injured on your property is covered by home insurance which most mortgage companies require.
 

The other thing I have a problem with is the City requiring of homeowners actions that the City themselves can't or won't undertake. 

Ok, as the designated nanny-stater here (I had never thought of myself that way before), I'll bite.  The city requires me to hire someone to haul my garbage away, despite the fact that this is normally seen as a municipal service in other places.  When I moved here I thought that this was the dumbest thing that I had ever heard of - now I just accept it like everyone else.  I'm sure there are plenty of other things - trees growing to block alleys, fallen limbs in the road, etc.

Yet, do you think the City would accept a similar explanation from a citizen in similar circumstances?  What if the homeowner wasn't able to get to the sidewalks, or was waiting on a contractor?

Well, as you can read from the N-G article, they aren't even going to issue fines.  This is for landlords in downtown Champaign and Campustown only, and they will get a couple of warnings, and if the walks still aren't shoveled, then they will send their own contractor in and bill the landlord.  So yes, they will definitely accept excuses from people.  Plus, I keep hearing about people not able to get out of their houses, or not able to get to the sidewalks.  It's not like we live in northern Canada here.  If you can't get to the sidewalk, how is someone supposed to walk down it?  Getting to the sidewalk is easy - you take a snow shovel, scoop up some snow, throw it to the side, and repeat as necessary.

That's almost as big a joke as the busybody on the Danville council who thinks the government should be telling people how to wear their clothes.

Maybe as punishment for all those kids with their ridiculous clown costumes (baggy pants, giant shirts, huge shoes), they should make them shovel snow in the winter.  Problem solved.

Seriously though - I was really surprised to see that no one shoveled their walks here.  That just seemed inconsiderate to me, which is really odd, since everyone is so friendly here - it certainly can't be conscious.  I'm way more rude than any of the people I've met that grew up here.

D-Man, I think the discussion here is about the implementation of required snow shoveling out in the neighborhoods.  I agree that we don't live in Canada, but if we did, we wouldn't be having this discussion because the City would be better equipped to address this, along with everyone else.  This was a discussion by the City in response to a large snow storm that we had and only have once every ten years or so.  So, therefore, we should just require everyone to shovel all of the time, regardless?

I understand the concept of snow shoveling--try shoveling your snow in a subdivision where the City's plows got stuck, and where the drifts in front of the garages made it impossible to get out through the garage.  And your answer is that since we're all stuck inside anyway, we should go out and shovel?

The other issue,in my opinion, is that for taxes that keep rising every year, not only do we receive less (like no garbage pick-up, street lights, water, etc), but now the City wants to mandate us to do what in many other parts of the State and country other municipalities already do?  Maybe you're just content to pay those tax bills, and pick up a shovel, but I and a lot of other people aren't.

D-man, your scenario is over the top.  People in wheelchairs (assuming there is even one in my neighborhood) don't go out for a stroll after 2 feet of snow when the city has been shutdown.  Just doesn't happen.  There are a couple elderly and I don't think I saw them outside at all, much less walking around.  And you aren't talking about charity, you are talking about obligation which is Christian justice not Christian charity, at best.

But this is all an aside because my point wasn't that people shouldn't shovel their sidewalks.  My point was who is the city to mandate standards of behavior without paying people for it when they are being paid to shovel the roads and they aren't even meeting the standards.

Here is a far more likely scenario (and I know because I know a couple this happened to), they were snowed in and the wife went into labor and he had to not only shovel two feet of snow off his driveway, they had to clear part of the street and then travel through bad streets to get to the hospital.  I'm more worried abuot people who legitimately need to ugently get somewhere than I am about people who want to take a stroll through closed business districts.  That's a public safety consideration.  Having clear sidewalks for recreation is an asthetic matter, not a safety issue.

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j
Part-Time Pundit

I think the first issue is whether it would have been possible for property owners to comply with the ordinance as originally written? The city was unable to clear the streets during the "Big Snow" unlike this statement claims "same way you drive after it snows on streets that have been cleared' how can they ask property owners too under penalty of a fine. Not only could the city not fulfill their responsibilities they even plan not to clear the streets. Their plan is to only clear the most traveled streets first then the secondary streets. They do this because it would be cost prohibitive and show poor judgment by city management to have the equipment and staff ready to do all the streets at once, waiting for an event that may happen once in 20 years. That’s why it is also hard for the public to comply with the ordinance there are not people waiting around to do something like clear snow that may not come, the people that would do the work won’t get paid for doing nothing.
There is no comparison here to mowing except that the city regulates mowing, my grass doesn't grow 6 or 12 inches over night and it doesn't drift 4 feet. It's not hard to find a kid to mow it when I am not around to do it myself. The people that do this work know that grass will grow again next year so they will always have work. Sometimes neighbors help each others out sometimes they don't there is no guarantee this does not help the property owner.
I don't agree that there are a high percentage of people walking to work and I would like to see some numbers on that. With a snow like that most people probably shouldn't be going to work and students shouldn't be in the street. I think people should think about what they are asking the city to do and give them a break. You are asking them to clear hundreds of truck loads of snow so that we can walk on the sidewalk. They have to put it somewhere it was a real pain for a few days. I think they really did a pretty good job. Considering I don't think people really were ready for a snow of that size. I think people should shovel their walks I just don't think you need to turn it into a federal offense. The businesses downtown that just ignore the ice and snow now will have to do something about it but the rest of the community are left alone.
I think the real problems came when the sidewalks were not cleared for students on campus or for people in downtown Champaign. Those problems came from the piles of snow that were plowed into curb cuts, bus stops and along streets by the city which forced people into the streets. Those problems were caused by the "Big Snow" that’s not something the city can change and creating new laws that impact the whole city is a “knee jerk” reaction.  
 

Really come and try to take it out of my yard.

As a pedestrian, sure, I'll come out and say there are a lot of lazy ass slackers in this town.  Yeah. I said it.  Of course no one ever likes to be called as other than the upstanding "nice" people they think they are, so they complain.

Most of the people whining about having to shovel their snow aren't elderly, they're just plain lazy.  They drive, so as long as they can navigate to the Suburban, screw the rest of the neighbors.

I have always shoveled my walk, after every snow.  Elsewhere in the world where it snows, this is a normal thing, and yes, half the time it's required by the various cities. No one bats an eye. Locally we have an ordinance stating that NO, in fact you're NOT liable if someone slips and falls on your shovelled walk, so that excuse is gone.  People just don't like shovelling. Okay.  So we laugh.

I agree having to hire my own garbage hauler is silly.  Instead of one municipal truck waking me at 5AM, we've got five separate competing companies charging identical prices for five identical capitalistically correct noisy trucks, and none of the companies is willing to actually send an envelope with the bill.  But, as others said, I learned to live with it.

But there is an annoyance with blocks that don't get shovelled. Some houses shovel, but if their neighbors are slackers, you get stranded halfway down the block, so you have to peer ahead and see if it's worth it, or if it's better to walk in the road. Granted, a lot of the offenders are landlords. On the other hand, there are some landlords who I see after every snow out there post haste shovelling cleanly all their properties.  I live next to apartments, they are among the shovellers (I see them shovelling, we arrange to make our paths meet).

I've been thinking that what really irritates me about walking on sidewalks is rain.  I don't own an umbrella and when I walk my hands are generally occupied and therefore unable to carry one anyway.  It sure rains alot more here than it snows, I think property owners should be required to provide cover over their sidewalks so that I can be kept dry while walking on them.  The cover would have to be removable as I want to be able to enjoy the sunshine when it is not raining. 

Wow, Akibare says out loud what others are thinking...

Well, not precisely, and I was dancing around using the word "lazy" so as to not be more confrontational than I thought is necessary, but I have to admit that the thought had crossed my mind.

People in wheelchairs (assuming there is even one in my neighborhood) don't go out for a stroll after 2 feet of snow when the city has been shutdown.  Just doesn't happen.  There are a couple elderly and I don't think I saw them outside at all, much less walking around.

Maybe they are not out because there is too much snow on the sidewalks.  There are plenty of disabled people attending UI, and it prides itself on being out front in terms of ramps and other amenities for people in wheelchairs, so it would certainly attract these folks, who have to get to class.  People talk about this snow like it comes down, and two days later it's gone - no, it sticks around for a week or so, so those people in wheelchairs and elderly people are going to have to go out sooner or later for bread, milk and so on.  If the snow fell a week before, why would they still need to be in the street just to make it to the Colonial Pantry?

Having clear sidewalks for recreation is an asthetic matter, not a safety issue.

Not at all.  People don't just walk for recreation...for example, there are plenty of people that have to walk to the nearest bus stop to get to work / school.  And no matter what the reason, if people have to walk in the street, which is not plowed curb to curb (if only because of parked cars), and if the street is still slippery, then we are just waiting for someone to get creamed by a car.

It sure rains alot more here than it snows, I think property owners should be required to provide cover over their sidewalks so that I can be kept dry while walking on them.

Ha!  But then the city would be abdicating its responsibilty to build a fully heated / air-conditioned dome over the city, and putting the burden on the taxpayer.

My thanks to the Anonymous poster last night who pointed out the city does have a sidewalk replacement program.  However, in the mile or so I walk per day, you would never know such program exists.  My guess is the program is fairly recent and hopefully over the years things will improve.

We had a 50/50 cost share sidewalk/driveway replacement program with the homeowners back in the 1960's when I worked for an Illinois city.  It was an annual program, with a sign up in the fall, bid contract let by the city the following Feb.  Cost letters sent Mar with payment received by April.  Work started in May.  Lots of interest by both contractors and residents so we replaced lots of sidwalk at very reasonable prices with shared funding.

As an FYI for snow removal, our ordinance said for residental areas, snow had to be removed if the depth was two inches or greater.  For non-residental zoned areas, snow had to be removed if the depth was one inch or greater.   Of course, this Illinois city was in the northern part of the state.