Depending on the source, either the community of Rossville wants to learn more about their witches, or hates them and are afraid their kids will start playing with potions and putting hexes on people. Either way, the local religious community hosted an open meeting about it.
According to the News-Gazette last week, it was just a polite gathering organized by local churches to remind Christians to be Christians and to learn more about the Wiccans. However, according to the Chicago Tribune, the local churches started blasting the Wiccans (complete with a billboard denouncing their beliefs) and organized the meeting to plan for "further steps". About the only similarity to the story was that the guest lecturer gave a presentation on Wiccans and encouraged them to be Christian.
It's sad when the News-Gazette can't even get local news right, and they basically get scooped by the Tribune two days after their original story runs.
Especially interesting considering how the N-G has expanded to Danville.
Maybe the pro-Chief nutcases can join the Wiccans and keep spreading hope.
There was nothing inconsistent with the two articles, Arvid. The N-G has previously written stories about the townspeople being upset with the Wiccans. The article from the N-G you reference reports only on the meeting last week and describes it pretty much like the Tribune does. There is plenty to criticize about the N-G, but this article isn't one of them.
This falls under the media criticism category of "I didn't see it, so it doesn't exist."
Maybe Esther Patt & Hiram Paley and the ACLU could intervene, They sure did not want anything to do with the Uof I homecoming controversy! "the restriction of students 1st. amendment rights"or better yet the Uof I could start a "Witch Program" modeled after some of the other things they have to show true compassion for these oppressed individuals!
I gotta agree with Anon 6:58 on this one. Arvid, your reading comprehension seems to be lacking. The NG article only covered the meeting and the Trib story doesn't disagree in the small part of its story where it mentions the meeting. The rest of the Trib story is based on interviews that occured outside meeting, something the NG didn't do.
My two cents: Yes, it does appear that the Tribune touched on the raw nerve of fear that a small community has of anything that will drive a wedge between them and their children, whereas the N-G article glossed it over. I started getting interested in Tarot cards and what not as a young teenager (13), studying astrology, and basically walking the walk of Wicca beliefs, if not exactly a member of any community-- with a Southern Baptist step-mom who was terrified by what I was doing, and would never even begin to talk to me about it. I have some idea about exactly what kind of fears New Age belief systems bring up in the minds of the devout... the most important one being that their children will be led away from Christ.
The N-G didn't really touch on this. Nor did it mention the rather important point that after a conversation outside the meeting which started off civil nearly turned into a confrontation complete with a fistfight, the founder of the school just decided to pack up and head to the next town over. It seems that dealing with four years of animosity from the community and having it end like this finally wore him down to the point where he just didn't want to deal with it anymore. It also seems like that would be an important thing to mention in the N-G article.
So, News-Gazette got the Who-When-Where-How parts, but missed a bit of the the real texture of What happened, and what the results were, or Why it happened-- pieces that are basically the reason why I read the news. Arvid, I saw what you saw. In all fairness, though, I don't think the N-G could have gotten away with running anything that made the Christians look un-Christian. They do, after all, have a business to run.
Kem
Justkem: I'm glad someone else saw what I saw. The N-G has run articles in the past, especially about the move from Hoopeston to Rossville, but they have not (to my knowledge) said much about how the devout of Rossville feel about the school, only comments from the business community about how they're happy there is one less empty storefront in town.
Arvid, your reading comprehension seems to be lacking.
Your concern for my reading comprehension skills is duly noted. I share the same concern for yours.
And just look what happened, you've been possessed by a demon ever since.
I just don't get this whole controversy. Well, I guess I do. Not long ago, there probably would have been a "Wiccan, don't let the sun set on you in Rossville" sign at the city limits by now.
Narc,
Heh. Ironically enough, belief in the vague and fuzzy mysticism behind tarot and astrology made me *more* likely to embrace/return to monotheism (albeit as a Muslim), not less. I would have been interested in hearing the presentation in that gymnasium, even if I would have found the call to convert somewhat annoying.
In any case, I don't think we're headed back to the good old fashioned days of witch hunts. Pluralism is a part of the American landscape now, and it's something that even small towns are coming to terms with. I think the clash of ideologies is inevitable, because of the whole "seduction of the young" factor-- but I suspect that it will all become increasingly irrelevant as the generations go by. The important thing is that our kids grow up to be good people, with good values and a strong sense of personal responsibility and the ability to empathize with others, no matter how different they are.
Kem
Hey
I did ask if they were republican or democrat witches/wiccans when I stopped by their storefront in Rossville when I was getting petitions signed. :) Thought I was in a Halloween store at first!
Dave Tomlinson
Getting Wiccans to vote along party lines is a little like trying to herd cats. Good luck with that! :)
Kem
I wonder what the political breakdown is in terms of understanding the magnitude and significance of Sundown Towns...
On October 30th, 2007 at 04:27 PM, xian said: "I wonder what the political breakdown is in terms of understanding the magnitude and significance of Sundown Towns..."
Personally, being right-of-center on multiple issues and topics, I know (intellectually) what a "Sundown Town" is, and understand a bit of the history about them. Beyond that, though, I'm not sure if I could instictively understand the magnitude and significance of "Sundown Towns". Unless I was one of those groups told to not let the sun go down on me in a specific town, I honestly don't know if I could instictively know the magnitude and significance of those towns. I guess I'm trying to explain the difference between "book-learning" and "cultural heritage learning", if that makes any sense at all...
HG
I wonder what the political breakdown is in terms of understanding the magnitude and significance of Sundown Towns...
What would it mean to you if it were true that only 10% of Republicans even knew what the term meant?
When I was growing up down in St. Clair County, the village of O'Fallon, Illinois had a huge sundown billboard on the main artery entering the west end of town. How long it had been there, I don't know. I saw it during the sixties.
History Guy
<< Unless I was one of those groups told to not let the sun go down on me in a specific town, I honestly don't know if I could instictively know the magnitude and significance of those towns. >>
I think it all depends on what they do in those Sundown Towns. I think if they were reviving the good old fashioned practice of auto de fe, the book learning and the cultural heritage learning would blur.
Now, as for the more subtle aspects? That I'm not so sure about. One litmus test you could use... the Tribune article mentioned a billboard that local churches put up, which urged everyone in the community to "Worship the Creator, not Creation." Are you okay with this? Would you be equally okay with a sign that said "Our Goddess gave birth to Your God." Or, perhaps if the marginalized group "fighting back" in slogan wars was a Muslim community, would you have a problem with a billboard that said, "There is No God But God, and Muhammed is his Prophet."? [please note: I'm not suggesting that this is something that would necessarily be sanctioned by any Muslim... I'm using it for the hypothetical scenario only.]
I suspect in a Sundown Town that these ideas would not fly. As an atheist in a free market of religious ideas, I think these Billboards concepts are all a bit silly (and even mildly pompous), and could be equally well summed up by one that said, "Be Excellent to Each Other... (with fine print reading: Silly Theists, Myths are for Kids)"
In the ideal world that none of us live in, none of these billboards would be in the least bit irksome... they would simply be expressions of religious faith or lack thereof. In the real world? People get offended pretty easily by these things, and people who are offended tend to be a little less rational than people who are openminded and interested in the discussion.
One things's for certain: I'd rather be a hated minority in a Sunset Town in 2007 than in 1963. We've come a long way, Baby.
Kem
On October 30th, 2007 at 09:56 PM, justkem said: "One litmus test you could use... the Tribune article mentioned a billboard that local churches put up, which urged everyone in the community to "Worship the Creator, not Creation." Are you okay with this? Would you be equally okay with a sign that said "Our Goddess gave birth to Your God." Or, perhaps if the marginalized group "fighting back" in slogan wars was a Muslim community, would you have a problem with a billboard that said, "There is No God But God, and Muhammed is his Prophet."? [please note: I'm not suggesting that this is something that would necessarily be sanctioned by any Muslim... I'm using it for the hypothetical scenario only.]"
I consider myself to be a faithful Christian (mainline Protestant, Methodist flavor, if not terribly consistent with attendence); if my specific church, the one I attended, the one I consider "mine", was behind such a billboard, either financially (meaning, with my tithes) or in terms of organizing it, I would find it mildly distasteful and inopportune, and would question why church funds (my tithes) were going to finance a billboard when that money could be used much more effectively by contributing to local charities, like Salt & Light, the Empty Tomb, Salvation Army, Goodwill, etc. I suspect I would feel much the same way if a local Wiccan group funded a billboard like you described, "Our Goddess gave birth to Your God"; if that's how you want to spend your money, well, it is your money after all...
(mind you, since I'm a Methodist, the whole Roman Catholic, Mary, the Mother of Jesus thing isn't a big deal. I wonder how a Roman Catholic would feel about the hypothetical Wiccan sign...)
(another thing: do the supporters of the billboard and their sympathizers, the ones who were hostile to the Wiccan group in the first town, think God isn't gonna let them in Heaven because they suffered a witch to live? really? the phrase "mote in your brother's eye versus the beam in yours" comes to mind)
and in your other hypothetical scenario, the Muslim billboard, again, it's their money, their beliefs behind the sign advertising their faith. As long as I'm not financially responsible for it, I really don't care.
"As an atheist in a free market of religious ideas, I think these Billboards concepts are all a bit silly (and even mildly pompous), and could be equally well summed up by one that said, "Be Excellent to Each Other... (with fine print reading: Silly Theists, Myths are for Kids)""
As a Christian in a free market of religious ideas, I agree with you that the billboard ideas are kinda silly and pompous...if someone is swayed by a billboard, of all things, then I kinda think they weren't all that strong in their faith and ideals to begin with.
HG
I was surprised when I recently found out those were especially bad here in Illinois. My friends still joke about it being illegal to be black in Leroy after dark.
Thanks for a thoughtful response, History Guy that has spurred a good discussion.
I also believe that it is a shame that so many church energies and resources have been devoted to an advertising and attacking model rather than a demonstrative model.
I will say that it depends on your definition of "effective" outreach. If you are looking to get people into your church, kidnapping, exhortion, bullying and advertising are probably the best ways. However, if we actually believe in the righteousness of our path, we should probably demonstrate that faith as a means of evangelical outreach.
And that goes just as much for atheists. Atheists who are secure and thoughtful are a good argument for atheism. Atheists who are on the "only those who are weaker than me need religious faith" tip just prompt me to think, "I don't care if they are right--why would I want to be around that *******".
<< I suspect I would feel much the same way if a local Wiccan group funded a billboard like you described, "Our Goddess gave birth to Your God"; if that's how you want to spend your money, well, it is your money after all... >>
Advertising makes sense on some level. Churches have bills to pay, too. There's a rather clever billboard in Rantoul that has a picture of a glass filled with wine coming out of a water faucet and the caption "Got Faith?", and I actually don't mind that at all. Life's short, smiles are good.
Still, one thing that I learned in sales is that you sell your product based on its own inherent strengths, not on the weakness of the competition. If that same billboard had gone on to say, "if it's not in Jesus, it's not Real Faith"-- yeah, I'd be annoyed.
<< I wonder how a Roman Catholic would feel about the hypothetical Wiccan sign... >>
Having a whole family full of them, I suspect it depends greatly on which Roman Catholic you ask. :)
<< (another thing: do the supporters of the billboard and their sympathizers, the ones who were hostile to the Wiccan group in the first town, think God isn't gonna let them in Heaven because they suffered a witch to live? really? the phrase "mote in your brother's eye versus the beam in yours" comes to mind) >>
Then, in answer to your earlier question about how well you would instinctively know the magnitude and significance of Sunset Towns, I'm going to guess the answer is that you would. A highly developed sense of empathy is really all it takes, and you seem to have that-- if I may be so bold as to make character judgments based off of a blog.
<< and in your other hypothetical scenario, the Muslim billboard, again, it's their money, their beliefs behind the sign advertising their faith. As long as I'm not financially responsible for it, I really don't care. >>
I have to agree... unless the intent of the board is to bully or intimidate others into abandoning their beliefs and jumping on the local bandwagon, in which case, I'm not really so inclined to give them a free pass for being idiots.
<< As a Christian in a free market of religious ideas, I agree with you that the billboard ideas are kinda silly and pompous...if someone is swayed by a billboard, of all things, then I kinda think they weren't all that strong in their faith and ideals to begin with. >>
I have to agree with that, too. I'll second xian's post in thanking you for a very thoughtful response.
Kem
Thanks for the compliments justkem and xian; to quote someone else, "you like me, you really like me" ;-)
On October 31st, 2007 at 11:19 AM, xian said: "Thanks for a thoughtful response, History Guy that has spurred a good discussion. I also believe..."
You're right, "effective" really depends on one's definition. Like you said, if we are convinced of the righteousness of our faith, then we should demonstrate that faith. It's a shame (and privately, I think a sadness to God) that so many people are rude, asinine, over-righteous, or so totally convinced they have the direct to God, that their path is the sole path to salvation. It seems to blind them to the possibilities and grace that others may offer and demonstrate.
On October 31st, 2007 at 04:55 PM, justkem said: "Advertising makes sense on some level. Churches have bills to pay, too. There's a rather clever billboard in Rantoul that has a picture of a glass filled with wine coming out of a water faucet and the caption "Got Faith?", and I actually don't mind that at all. Life's short, smiles are good."
I certainly agree; it doesn't matter how "true" a denomination's doctrine is if the power bill ain't paid, or how wonderful the church is if the rent is overdue. I've seen that billboard in Rantoul (or one like it somewhere else in the CU area), and thought it was a nice play off the "Got Milk?" campaign, and the visual images were nicely done. A church needs to "advertise" in all sorts of ways (billboard ads, newspaper ads, radio ads, tv commercials, sponser local youth groups, interfaith groups, local charity groups, etc) to put the butts in the pews. like you said later on in your reply, as long as the billboard isn't intimidating or bullying, then i'm not gonna get bent out of shape by it.
(and i don't know the definition of intimidation by billboard, but like Justice Stewart said, "I know it when I see it.")
A highly developed sense of empathy is really all it takes, and you seem to have that-- if I may be so bold as to make character judgments based off of a bulletin board.
kind lady, you do flatter me too much; and frankly, everyone else seems to make character judgments based of postings on this website, so go ahead. My empathy extends to those who are in dire straights, tough times, difficulties that are beyond their control. Your 8yr old child has cancer? you have my prayers, thoughts, a helping hand, and my empathy. You have a large car repair bill because you wrapped your car around a telephone pole while driving drunk? sorry, you're SOL...
But what do i know? i'm just a inconsistently-attending-church Methodist layman...
HG