Smile Politely

it still has the implication that it is the City gov'ts job to make it happen

"no sufficient parking,"

That is a problem for every single business downtown, not just groceries.  The simple answer is to get a big enough footprint to create your own parking.  Nobody said the grocery needed to be in the 100 block of Neil.  There are, however, several possible locations within just a few blocks of there, most notably in the area bounded by Main, Neil, Bradley, and the railroad tracks.

"no unloading zone"

I am unaware of a single grocery store of any reasonable size anywhere that unloads its trucks in the street in front of the store.  Groceries (and all larger retailers, for that matter) build in space behind the store as part of their initial design.  In that respect, they are clearly superior to all of the bars and restaurants downtown, which consistently unload very large trucks on Neil or Church or Main, etc.

"no highways to allow semi access"

And yet the downtown area is filled with semis at every hour of the business day, regardless.  The News-Gazette presses alone are responsible for several semis invading downtown every day.

By your logic, no business should ever locate downtown.  But hey, who needs commerce?  Just because Urbana has a downtown grocery is no reason to expect that one would ever work anywhere near downtown Champaign or (gasp!) campustown, let alone anywhere between the two. 

"I'd say Bradley is a little out of the realm of downtown. I don't see people carrying sacks of groceries as they walk on uneven, poorly maintained sidewalks between Neil and Bradley."

Yes, Bradley is a little out of the realm of downtown.  I was describing the area in general in terms that would be immediately understandable to most, but you have chosen to focus solely on the extreme northernmost point of that description.  The bulk of the potentially reclaimable space in that area is south of Vine, and is all just a block or two (or three) from downtown.  (BTW, there are no sidewalks, maintained or otherwise, between Neil and Bradley.  Neil and Bradley are intersecting arteries, not parallel.)

"Another problem with building in the downtown -- lack of space."

You must be right.  Space (and time) do not exist in downtown Champaign.  There's no new construction of any scale downtown.  No buildings can or will ever be renovated or knocked down completely.  The big hole that just appeared on the NW corner of Church and Neil doesn't really exist.  Nor does the massive structure on the NE corner.  No space can ever be reclaimed or altered.  Nothing to see here.  Keep your blinders on at all times.  Move along.  :-)

"Wow -- one business, and one that just started a new printing facility."

The News-Gazette presses have been in their facility on the corner of Main and Market for well over a decade, and probably closer to two.  I think they were in that same location in some configuration for much longer still than that.  I know that because I have worked in the Lincoln Building (across the street) for over twenty years.

"Those semis are just pouring through!  (Well, at least when they're not getting stuck in the viaducts.)"

Actually, there are a significant number of semis that pass through downtown on a regular basis.  I only mentioned the News-Gaxette because it is the most immediately obvious to me, and most recognizable to folks who don't spend much time downtown.

And you should probably know that it is not necessary to pass either over or under a single viaduct to enter downtown Champaign from either the north, south, or west.  The only viaducts are under the railroad tracks to the east.

"If you're referring to the one I think you are, it's right off a highway with lots of parking and unloading space. Downtown Champaign doesn't have those things."

There's no need to be coy.  I'm talking about Schnuck's, which is at the corner of Vine and Main.  I'm not sure what you mean by a highway.  Vine is four lanes.  Main is, too.  In downtown Champaign, you have four lanes on Neil and University and Randolph and State and Green and so on and so on.

As to the "lots of parking and unloading space," you should know that none of that existed previously.  They had to create it.  I know, because I lived on the corner of Main and Webber from 1993 until 1998.  The Schnucks opened in the winter of '96-'97.  There was no space for parking or unloading until they cleared the existing buildings away and reclaimed the space.  If I remember correctly, they also needed to do quite a bit of landfilling and landscaping and clearing of some fairly substantial trees.

"Campustown used to have something like that. First its space was reduced, then it was eliminated entirely."

Campustown had, to the best of my memory over the last thirty-five years, only a handful of quickie marts and one legitimate grocery.  The grocery was at the corner of Sixth and John for decades, but it was tiny to begin with and never changed size.  Nonetheless, it did enough business to basically stay there forever, and only closed when the owners retired, as I recall.

The quickie marts were scattered around the area: Fourth and Green, Sixth and Green, Green and Wright, etc.  The original location of Strawberry Fields was in a house right around where the north engineering quad is now.  There used to be a White Hen somewhere around the current location of WILL, too, but now we're starting to get further from campustown.

None of these was entirely satisfactory as a grocery, for obvious reasons.  For decades, most students ended up going entirely outside of campustown to the Jewel on Green and Neil for their major needs.  That closed (in the nineties?) primarily due to changes at the parent company, rather than the viability of that particular site.

And thus began the era of no major grocery within easy distance of either downtown Champaign or Campustown.  It may be good for Ken Lee, but bad for everyone else.

"Regarding the viaducts: It doesn't matter what I know, only what the semi drivers know. And their maps steer them into viaducts."

Any semi driver whose map steers him through a viaduct to get from either of the interstates to downtown Champaign either needs a new map or to get a different job, because he's clearly no good at directions.  The streets are what they are.  You don't have to take my word for it, you can go out and look at them for yourself.  You are simply wrong.

"I never said or implied the N-G doesn't have a downtown printing facility. But it has added another one, and I believe it's in another location."

Then your point is completely irrelevant, because they are still using the one downtown, and the semis have been rolling through like clockwork for decades, without getting stuck under viaducts.

"That store is a decent walk from the downtown, though; I've done it a few times."

It's at the corner of Vine and Main.  That is downtown.  Again, you are simply wrong.

"And any traffic planner will tell you there's a difference between the 4-lane traffic pattern of Vine/Cunningham and the 4-lane pattern of Main/Church."

Main/Church isn't four lane.  One more time (wait for it), you are simply wrong in your description of physical reality.  Nor is it a particular good place for a grocery, which is why I didn't mention it or suggest it.  Are we having the same conversation?

"Also, State and Randolph are two-lane, one-way roads. They are not 4-lane."

Which means that, when taken together (as they are clearly intended to be), they are functionally equivalent in many ways to a single four lane artery, and in some respects are actually superior from a traffic standpoint.  That's why they've been that way forever, instead of both being converted to two-lane, two-way streets.

"And many people still get groceries at Osco at the corner of Neil and Green."

I guess many people still get some of their groceries at gas stations, too, but you can not possibly be suggesting that either alternative is a satisfactory replacement for an actual grocery.

"Finally, regarding the development of the Champaign downtown: That was a long, painful endeavor that featured a number of shabby-looking buildings for a number of years. The parking garage had major structural issues before it was finally demolished, and many months passed before that area was usable for parking. Also, the parking Gestapo are pretty thorough in that area, so I don't know how well that would work for carrying bags of groceries several blocks."

And yet, they still happened, even though there was no available space previously.  You've completely missed my point, and I'm not at all sure what yours is here.  I don't think I ever said to put a grocery on Main or Church.  I merely used them as examples of how the landscape can be changed to make space for things we want, even if the space doesn't appear to be there to begin with.

You seem to think that once a building or street has been put in place, no matter how long ago, that nothing can ever change, regardless of whether or not it is currently being used effectively, or even being used at all.  As it turns out, development is not restricted to lots that have been empty since the Europeans first came to America.

"the rest of your details about traffic patterns and roads are off, if not completely wrong. Any competent developer will have all of those details and more before considering this plan."

Your analysis seems to this layman to be both shallow and superficial, and designed to match your preconceived notions rather than observable facts.  I can tell you from direct observation that there is lots and lots of traffic already on Neil and University and Springfield and Randolph and State, and it already includes quite a few semis, and it still moves pretty well nearly all of the time.

Finally, I'm not sure what "this plan" is that you refer to.  I didn't present a plan.  I merely pointed out that your initial assumptions about the viability of new businesses in and around downtown Champaign may not be warranted, and I offered a sample area that seemed to me to be conducive to such new development.

It's not the only place this development can take place, certainly.  But I've spent nearly every weekday since 1984 to this day working in downtown Champaign, and I lived within five or six blocks of there from 1984 until 1991.  As a result, I can tell you that if the City Council is serious about further development downtown, the area I've described is one they will almost certainly spend a lot of time looking at.

They seem to be making a concerted effort to increase the population density downtown, and those people are not going to want to eat out every meal.  That means groceries, and that demands convenience.  Once demands reach a certain level of critial mass, they tend to get met, regardless of your illusory perceptions or artificially constructed presumptions.

"The point was the 4-lane pattern of Vine and Cunningham through Urbana, hich you seem to have missed. I'm sure an urban planner could use the definitions and spell this out for you. I only presented the Main/Church example because the other examples you presented were flat-out wrong, as they weren't 4 lanes. In other words, it was an attempt to blunt your original, widespread geographical mistakes that any thorough developer will not make.

Of course, using your definitions, Church would be 4 lanes because there's another one-way, 2-lane road parallel to it in the next block. Again, you constrict reality when it suits you and expand it when it suits you. Any thorough developer will not be lured by this technique."

I'm not sure how you can be so blatantly wrong here and not realize it.  Downtowns in cities all across America have used pairs of opposing one-way streets to help with traffic flow issues when there simply isn't space to have an equivalent two-way street with the same number of lanes.  The same technique is used with the interstate system in essence as they are intended fo handle some of the heaviest traffic flow.  If developers in nearly every major city and most medium to large scale cities have used the technqiue... somehow I think there's more to the idea than you can seem to accept.

And no matter how impossible you say it is for semis to deliver goods to downtown and navigate downtown... they do.  Daily.  And how often does one get stuck in a viaduct?  Honestly?  How many per year?  Is it even up to once per five years?  Trucking maps (unless you have one with errors) specifically address clearance issues and semi-restrictions throughout the nation and truckers themselves tend to know their clearance well enough that they don't just ignore clearance warnings that appear on the signs over the turn lanes and over the viaducts themselves.  For this scenario to occur a lot of mistakes need to be made.  Fortunately it doesn't happen very often.

"And if you go back to the start of this thread, I did start out by saying: They don't understand that grocery stores need a boatload of parking available. Barring some major changes, they won't get that in the downtown. So your attempt to go back to colonial days doesn't bear much fruit here."

The fact that small scale grocery stores have existed in dense downtown areas in major cities forever and ever in spite of the lack of parking doesn't make you question your judgement here?  It's not the same scenario as burbs where everyone drives everywhere and you have all the space in the world for parking lots... yet dense inner city areas can pull it off and have been for a very long time.  Personally I don't think the downtown area has quite the population to justify a grocery store at this point... but I'm no expert on the subject and could be wrong.  My guess that one reasonably close by and on the bus routes would be more feasible... such as an expansion of the Osco on Neil and Green which already covers basic groceries... (much better than a gas station I might add).

"Back to the original point: Barring major changes, including whatever conversion process takes place at the site of Christie, downtown Champaign will be deemed woefully inadequate for anything but a tiny, "bare bones" grocery store by any developer who does a thorough analysis."

I'm not sure I ever heard anyone suggest that it was possible to bring a burb-sized Schnucks or other mega-store into the downtown area.  Small downtown grocery stores will certainly seem "bare bones" compared to the gigantic grocery stores that people are used to in the spread out burbs and smaller cities surrounded by agriculture.  Some times "bare bones" is exactly what people need... now whether there is enough demand for it or not, I'd guess no, but I'm sure people with a keener business sense will figure it out better than I could. 

--

Glock21 Op/Ed

I will be very happy to see the County Market (I think?) going into the Burnham site.  I already shop at AmKo, and will be able to get some US type food right nearby.

The Osco at Green and Neil of course used to be a "Jewel-Osco."  But the parent company decided that people were preferring "stand alone pharmacies" so they purposely shut the Jewel down.  This was based on some national trend, not the local situation. 

People of course complained, and as a result that particular Osco sells more "quick stop" groceries than do most of them.  The Walgreens on Green sells more grocery items than most Walgreens in Chicago for similar reasons.

Cities all over the world have small markets.  When the market is a block from the house, you don't buy a week's worth of food at a time, you buy only what you need for the next day or two, right on the way home from work.  Quite frankly, I prefer that system.  Feel like making a certain recipe? Just grab the ingredients fresh right there on the way up to your apartment.  If you're not buying for the week (never mind the month) you don't NEED to haul the loot home in a huge SUV.

"You're way off on the number of trucks getting caught in the viaducts. The papers print pictures when that happens, so unless they're creating fictional photos, it's happening."

Not sure how asking how often it happens is equated to it never happening... except to make a strawman argument.  But really, how often does it happen?  I remember hearing about it happening once in the last 7 years or so... saw the pictures in the paper too.  But outside of that one time... were there others I missed?

"But back to the reality that you choose to ignore: Semis will have a tough time negotiating the turns in downtown Champaign. The ones off University are hard enough for regular vehicles; they'll be impossible for semis."

The problem with your claim that I am "ignoring reality" is that I've seen it "in reality" too many times to believe your absurd claim.  You can say it can't work a million times... yet if you hang out in downtown during the day you will see it happen plenty of times throughout the day.  You'll never convince me they can't because I've seen that they can and do regularly.

"The nonsense about the one-way, 2-lane streets is getting more ridiculous now. How can you possibly look at the traffic pattern of Vine/Cunningham, then look at the ones in downtown Champaign and say: "Yep, that's the same"? Any thorough developer will see the difference immediately."

It's not exactly the same.  But as far as traffic flow it still works.  And you can see examples of it working quite well in cities across America that have downtown stores and shops, including grocery stores.

"Disregarding one-way traffic patterns is foolish. Even gas stations look immediately at this because they know drivers will look for convenient access."

Nobody is saying to ignore the difference in traffic patterns.  Plenty of gas companies set up stations on one-ways.  Take a drive up main street in Bloomington and you will see how they adapted:  Access points from each one-way street on either side of the station.

None of this shows how a grocery store couldn't work in downtown.  No matter how much you claim others are "ignoring reality" by pointing out that you could drive down to downtown and see for yourself that you're wrong it won't make you right.  No matter how much you disagree about the feasibility of one-way streets for effective traffic flow in dense downtown areas, you can easily drive through almost any major city and see you are just plain wrong.  The closest two would be Indianapolis and Chicago.  But you can see the same things in New York City, Boston, Nashville, New Orleans (prior to the deluge), Memphis, Denver, etc etc... as just a few examples of downtowns I've personally driven through and seen it work.

But seeing it for yourself and experiencing it for yourself is "ignoring reality" or something...

--

Glock21 Op/Ed

That somehow disproves the feasibility of businesses in downtown areas on one-way streets?  It's amazing you aren't a politician yourself!  :-)

--

Glock21 Op/Ed

I wonder if part of the problem with the viaduct-truck wedgies is with less than attentive drivers failing to read their maps precisely.  There is a minimum clearance for US highways, they think "ah, Springfield is US 150 so no problem," but don't realize that actually the US 150 designation goes AWAY from Springfield Ave for a bit in the region of the viaduct, because the viaduct doesn't have the proper clearance.  Next thing you know, the truck's peeled like a tin of sardines.

I've always had a bit of a chuckle at how often the article or caption on the relevant photo in the News Gazette will contain the words "the driver, who wishes to remain nameless..."  Yeah, I'll bet he does!

I will be very happy to see the County Market (I think?) going into the Burnham site.  I already shop at AmKo, and will be able to get some US type food right nearby.

And the city will be subsidizing the County Market only.  For the city to "get a grocery story downtown" will mean they have to 'incent' it somehow.  Grocery stores do not create new demand - there is only so much shopping.  So if one goes up downtown, some other store will lose the share of that demand they had.  Could be AmKo, could be Strawberry Fields, could be Schnucks.   I don't think it is fair for the city to take sides in a battle for grocery market share.

"That was why the original post said "barring major changes." I think I've reminded you of that twice now. You are the one who seems to believe the current setting is ideal."

Oh, my.  How sad.  Back to square one.  And things were going so nicely.

Downtown development (or more accurately, re-development) is usually, by definition, "major changes."  If it weren't, there probably would be no point to it.  Adding a grocery in close proximity to downtown would most certainly be a major change.  That's why we're even discussing it in the first place.  Therefore, the distinction you appear to be attempting to fall back on now would seem to be that "barring major changes," there can be no successful major changes.  Hmmm.

I think I understand now the source of your difficulties in this discussion.  You seem to be caught in a Hindu mind trap of your own devising.  Your argument is that downtown development can't work without downtown development, and therefore, downtown development is doomed to failure.

I honestly don't know how to bust you out of that perpetual loop of self-fulfilling prophecy you have created without smacking your cpu case, unplugging your power cord, and re-booting your OS.  In the nicest possible way, of course.

For the record, I have never claimed that the current setting is ideal.  Actually, I have strongly argued exactly the opposite: that there are a significant number of properties in or near downtown that are currently far from ideal.  They are at best lying fallow, and at worst an absolute blight, and that is why they are prime candidates for redevelopment.

I have also pointed out that some of your characterizations of the "current setting" (mostly in regard to traffic) are incorrect, and that your sense of directions and geography are occasionally in error.  Several people who live or work or spend considerable amounts of time downtown have agreed with me.

I have pointed out that parking is indeed a problem both historically and currently for all existing and proposed downtown businesses (not just groceries), but that it is one that is eminently fixable.

And I have consistently been the one who has talked about both the need and the ability to change the landscape, while you have until recently seemingly refused to acknowledge that was even possible.  In short, by calling for redevelopment, I have by definition been the one calling for a change in the "current setting," while it has seemed to me, at least, that you were pretending to be some bizarre cross between Eeyore and an ostrich.

I suppose it's possible that this has all been merely some bizarre misunderstanding of your position on my part.  If that is in fact the case, I am truly deeply sorry.  Even if it's not the case, I apologize anyway if I have sometimes strayed into needless sarcasm or been an occasional smart ass.  I do that all too often when I get frustrated.  This is supposed to be fun (or at least interesting for all the right reasons).

But we seem to have come full circle here, and it's late, and I'm tired.  Annoy me some more tomorrow.  ;-)

"small purc hases -- newspapers, gum, cigarette, aspirin."

That slew of revenue should have grocers lining up.

Don't we have most of the big revenue items for a grocery in that small little list? Groceries have notoriously low profit margins, however grocers would line up for a high demand of drugs, cigarettes and yes, even gum and cigarettes. Those are the items they make the most amount of money off of, and the labor required to stock them is very low.

WORST. POSTER. EVER.

As to location of mythical downtown grocery store, Queen selfishly casts her vote for the old Trader's World spot on Main & Chestnut (next door to us).  I can hear the phone calls now. "What? Pick up a loaf of bread on my way home? Sure, Honey. No inconvenience at all."   

It's easy access for large vehicles. There's adjacent, leasable parking. It's very convenient to some of the newest residential spaces. And incidental business from bus and train travelers on layover would supplement the more predictable local residential and business demand--whatever that may or may not be. The building certainly can't be making money for the owner(s) now, and there's no evidence of anything new going in.

Alternately, last I heard, there's available room in the old train station on Chestnut, just around the corner from us. Beautiful real estate, that. Hasn't been leveraged well in years, but the potential is grand.

I don't know the grocery business. I am aware that it's a brutal business and that the margins are frightfully low for most products; but like any business, there has to be profit to made somewhere, or we wouldn't have grocery stores.

But I am a dam good consumer. :)  And I'd just be tickled to learn that someone who does know the grocery business is looking into (or has looked into and dismissed) the remote possiblity that a li'l bitty friendly grocery store could work in downtown Champaign for those who live and work there.

"Pedestrians aren't going to carry bags of groceries for blocks."

Of course they will.  They do it every day.  I did it for decades, both in Chicago Heights and Champaign.  Students will do it happily, given the opportunity.  Apartment dwellers in downtown would most certainly do it if they could.  Ditto for those working downtown.

"As has been said here numerous times, most grocery stores claim small profit margins. Thus, they probably don't want to incur lots of costs renovating a site in a questionable location."

Some of them might, depending on the location.  Many of them probably wouldn't.  That's why others develop the property for them and then lease it to them.  We already covered that.  Please try to keep up.

"And I knew the 90-degree turn issue would confuse you. Add to that those are blind turns, and under current circumstances, there is no room for drivers to negotiate."

Just as I knew that you would rather deal with hypothetical proofs rather than actual verifiable facts.  I have worked a block and a half from there for twenty years.  My wife's office was on the second floor of that building from 1998 to 2001, when she worked for the Illinois Pro Bono Center.  This was also during the period when our good friend Paul Faraci owned and operated the City of New Orleans restaurant on the first floor, with his office also on the second floor.

I have very clear memories of semis making deliveries to that restaurant with some regularity.  They backed up to his rear entrance by the beer garden, in the rear of the building.  I suppose Scotty must have beamed them in there.

"I'm starting to wonder if your side is one of those rampant developers that dreams of never-ending expansion on the edges of the city. Clumsy efforts in the downtown would aid your cause."

Actually, I absolutely abhor that type of development.  That's why I would like to see the downtown areas revitalized.  It would seem instead that you are the impetus for suburban sprawl, since you have pronounced all downtown redevelopment DOA.

I am curious, however, about one thing, and I hope you'll forgive me for asking.  Are you the same anon who has been flogging IP in the Carle thread, and Narc in the condom thread?  I only ask because I suspect I may have detected some subtle similarities in style, attitude, and tonality.  Could be wrong.  No biggie.  And you are well within your rights to forego an answer.

"Kevin has a lot of experience playing sim city, so he knows what he's talking about. It takes a special person to discuss what to do with other people's money and property. I think Kevin should wear pink, that might make him look better. Ah, that's fun to do."

You have confirmed what I have always suspected:  ALL of us here at Pundit, including yourself, are special people.  (BTW, while I look pretty good in pink, my personal preference is for purple.)

On November 7th, 2007 at 08:10 PM, Kevin Sandefur said:  "...Are you the same anon who has been flogging IP in the Carle thread, and Narc in the condom thread?"

You're not the only one to have that same suspicion. 

HG

Sorry Bad Anonymous, even the rocks, the trees and the birds in the sky hate you.

"For your next version of Sim City, you should include railroad tracks and viaducts."

Claiming that the viaducts prohibit all semi access to downtown Champaign is exactly like claiming that Lake Michigan prohibits all access to Chicago.  There are three other major points to the compass, and two of those are actually in the directions of the interstate highways.  But hey, there's that pesky reality, again.

The only thing the viaducts might actually impede is convenient access to downtown from campus or Urbana.  There are probably some in Champaign who would consider that not altogether a bad thing.

Yeah, I guess all that would be cool -- if Champaign wants to go back to the life of the 1920s.

Maybe we could bring back the crank-up Model Ts, too.

Try the 2020s--there are plenty of  more advanced cities that have advanced beyond daily use of the car.

I hesitate to even enter this space but I'd like to mention that the old train station building might make a nice Whole Foods. 

Just a thought.

akibare... just did a google image search for "don't feed the trolls"... and that one seemed pretty appropriate.  :-) 

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Glock21 Op/Ed

Yeah, normally I'm against not engaging people. But this is an example of a thread which started with a single stance by a new organization that was misinterpreted and led to dozens of crap posts that had nothing to do with the organization.

"It is kind of sad that it started with the words "Smile" and "Politely" and turned out so bad."

My nomination for the Illini Pundit Observation of the Week Award.

Smilepolitely.com is the perfect outlet for the liberal activists. The Buzz is the least diverse newspaper in the area so horribly one-sided politically while bashing any business that does not follow the Strawberry Fields model. If the Buzz is not radical enough for these guys, I'm sure it is going to make for some very entertaining "journalism".

I really enjoy street festivals with bands that play covers. GREAT for them if they put together a festival that is geared to a niche audience.

I'm very intrigued to see if smilepolitely.com advocates bringing people more choice or limiting choice to their own pre-defined criteria. Kudos to them if they launch. More is definitely better.

High Dive and Cowboy Monkey are smoke free and play cover bands from time to time, unless things have changed recently.

"High Dive and Cowboy Monkey are smoke free and play cover bands from time to time, unless things have changed recently."

Juice bars, not beer bars.  I only enjoy cover bands in a totally healthy environment.

"Grocery stores need parking, outside of urban areas. Now, I know lots of folks on here are talking like Champaign is an urban area or as if its inhabitors should behave as if it is one, but the reality is that it is not."

All businesses need parking and there isn't enough. Is there any big brand that has been serious about downtown? Big brands typically have the resources to perform extensive diligence. It would be a very positive sign for downtown if a big brand like Walgreens moved into the area, or at least provide validity.

I think the new County Market on 4th will get a lot of business, and I also think it's close enough to count as a downtown grocer.  I'm very happy to see it going in.

As for where students shop? Try riding the bus on Friday PM or the weekend.  They pack the buses to go do their shopping at Meijer, and yes, they do complain that there is no more convenient alternative.

Grocery stores have gotten steadily larger due in part to general retail glut and the market share wars. One way to cut costs is to build ever bigger stores, to get efficiency in distribution.  There is demand for the 4th st. location, and I do think the store will do well, but it's not THE easiest store for the company to possibly chase, so they required incentives. I'm hoping that the city's dream of having some anchor business between Campustown and downtown Champaign does help to build a sort of corridor there, to attract more things.

Part of the problem with Philo Rd. in Urbana (aside from the reroute of the IL-130) is that when stores closed for whatever reason (think: Kmart) the current incarnations of the big box stores no longer would consider opening a store of "only" that size - they're even phasing out their own "smaller" locations.  The old "big boxes" more and more are needing to be torn down before anyone will reuse the space. The fact that the stores all now pretty much build branded buildings, like fast food chains have for a long time, also makes them less attractive for reuse.

I'm amazed at all the changes on Green St. lately, particularly the news that an Urban Outfitter's is coming.  The situation with clothing and specialty chains is that they no longer compete alone, instead they have "chains of chains" as the mergers happen and the market share war rages, so you'll notice if you travel around that strip malls don't just have the same stores on the outskirts of every town, they have the same SERIES of stores in a clump.  Bed Bath and Beyond always goes with Old Navy, for instance.  Campustown has been trying to get some clothing retail for a while, and the big chains had so far said no, in part because they don't want to be alone, they want their partner store next door and the  market wasn't there.

Lots of people have been complaining that the new and great Champaign is largely only bars and restaurants for a while now.  Don't get me wrong, it's FAR better than it was, but it's not yet a true multiuse area, IMHO.  The County Market will help.

I don't think the city needed to give County Market the incentives, but "incentives" is now apparently the city of Champaign's middle name.  I do think the market is there for the grocer down there, why it didn't happen sooner is a mystery to me.

Think about it - a kid living in an apartment on Green St. has to go all the way to Urbana to buy a head of lettuce.  Sure, there are a lot of kids on the meal plans, but there are tens of thousands (seriously) living in apartments who need that grocery.

Not so much in downtown Champaign, though I am sure the martini bars and hipster record stores are doing well.  Be prepared for the boom times!