Click on the link below -
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/
What really happened!! Great video on the Middle East !!
Posted March 8th, 2008 at 12:50 AM by illinipunditposter
To be honest, it felt like propaganda. For example, there were a lot of comments about how "The Arabs" wanted to destroy Jews, and they used quotes from Nasrallah (leader of Hezbollah) that were apparently supposed to reflect how all "The Arabs" felt. I've been following a blog by a Lebanese artist who talked about getting out of Lebanon during the last conflect, and she referred to Nasrallah as a "ghoul." IIRC, it also implied that all "The Arabs" supported Hitler, which made me suspicious. (Some may have, but it's hard to believe that all of them did.)
Wayward... I agree. It seems that the video spent so much time demonizing Arabs in general that it really distracted from the goal of correcting historical misconceptions or disproving anti-Israel propaganda. It made many good points but seems so overtly biased against Arabs that most people would probably dismiss it as propaganda too.
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Glock21 Op/Ed
The video may feel like propaganda because of the large text and easy to discern photos and graphics. However, unlike propaganda, it probably does not make any false statements, and makes no decpetive generalizations. And it makes some strong points--for instance (a) Israel's acceptance of one million Arabs as Israeli citizens with more rights than Arabs in other mid east countries, and (b) a quote of how the Arab nations abandoned the Palestinians in 1948, and (c) that certain of the Arabs leaders have Swiss bank accounts. Feel free to post here any misleading statements you believe the video makes.
It probably is the case tha Arabs who are Israeli citizens are second class in varous subltle ways, but their lives on average are certainly better than their lives would be in most Arab countries.
Unfortunately, whether or not representative the feelings of most Arabs, the Arab radicals who advocate the destruction of Jews and Israel have enough sympathizers to threaten Israel.
illinipunditposter
It probably is the case tha Arabs who are Israeli citizens are second class in varous subltle ways, but their lives on average are certainly better than their lives would be in most Arab countries.
Yes, and the noble savages lived far better as slaves than they would have in Africa, so the middle passage was a great thing. I'm not buying these pro-Apartheid arguments.
"The video may feel like propaganda because..." it is propaganda. It does not have to contain lies or generalizations. It just has to tell part of the story, half of the truth, contain omissions to favor a view. Yes, its propaganda. xian, Glock21 and wayward caught some of the bias. We need the rest of the story. Where is the Arab post of terrorismawareness.org/what really happened?
To Local Voter:
Any argument favoring a particular viewpoint may tell part of a story, half of the truth or contain omissions. By your characterization, almost any statement from any of the presidential candidates and most advertising, especially political advertising, is propaganda.
This video is clearly produced by an organization which is (a) not attempting to hide its perspective, and (b) cannot prevent individuals from being exposed to other views, and (c) does not target those incapable of discovering other view. These three points are clear to anyone viewing the video. Thus the video is not deceptive in the way we typically associate with propaganda.
It would be more helpful if you (and the other posters) informed us of what, if anything, in the video you consider false, and what other parts of the story, other halves of the truths or omissions you feel exist. Providing one or two web links to such might help illustrate your thoughts
I
Any Arab who who is Israeli citizen could certainly move to Jordan, Egypt or Syria. And if any were silly enough to want to move to any of those countries, I doubt the Israeli government would prevent them from doing so
"By your characterization, almost any statement from any of the presidential candidates and most advertising, especially political advertising, is propaganda."
Ummm, well, yeah. It is. By definition.
"This video is clearly produced by an organization which is (a) not attempting to hide its perspective, and (b) cannot prevent individuals from being exposed to other views, and (c) does not target those incapable of discovering other view."
Sooo, because it exists freely in the real world as opposed to a vacuum or a totalitarian sensory deprivation box, it's kosher? I think not. That's a bar that is so low as to be virtually nonexistent.
"Thus the video is not deceptive in the way we typically associate with propaganda."
Deception is not, nor has it ever been, part of the definition of propaganda. It is a tool sometimes used in the most extreme cases, but the most effective propaganda is always truth based.
It probably is the case tha Arabs who are Israeli citizens are second class in varous subltle ways, but their lives on average are certainly better than their lives would be in most Arab countries.
Yes, and the noble savages lived far better as slaves than they would have in Africa, so the middle passage was a great thing. I'm not buying these pro-Apartheid arguments.
Xian, you are way off base on this. Although Israel set out to be a Jewish state, it also set out to be a multi-ethnic democracy. Those two strands may be at odds sometimes, but that doesn't mean that Israel is not a multi-ethnic democracy. The Palestinians that are Israeli citizens aren't just a little better off than those in Arab states, but have a higher standard of living than Arabs in non-oil producing states, and they can actually organize politically, choose their own leaders, and vote in non-sham elections. That doesn't mean that there are no problems with their status as Arabs in a Jewish state, but conflating the Palestinians in the West Bank with those in Galilee and dismissing it all with Carteresque "apartheid" namecalling and making slavery metaphors is not really honest.
When the most recent violence flared up in the wake of the failed Camp David II effort in 2000, Ehud Barak went *way* over his mandate, and offered both a large amount of the West Bank and Gaza, *and* Arab-majority lands in Galilee - places that have been Israel since 1948 - to make up for the shortfall. Putting aside the fact that the always poorly led Palestinian delegation didn't accept the offer or even offer a counter offer, the Arab Israelis that lived in Galilee were mortified. The Palestinians in Jerusalem, which was annexed and the people given the option for Israeli citizenship, haven't seemed very eager to join up the unmitigated disaster that is the Palestinian Authority either. Seeing as they would prefer to live under the rule of the Israelis than their own people, then not only is the slavery thing absurd, but I think that you should find a new victim group to advocate for - they don't appear to need your assistance. Apparently the "slaves" on the "middle passage" have chosen to stay in "apartheid."
Well, your appraisal of my argument is not intellectually honest and that's why you are able to call it intellectual dishonest.
I'm not saying that it's the same as it was in South Africa or slavery. I'm saying that your arguments are similar. The argument that "that faction isn't being treated equally, but they have it better than _________ place" is a straight up argument against democracy. If I'm wrong, please explain without strawmanning my argument and otherwise being deceptive.
So I didn't make a slavery comparison. I made a comparison to justifications for slavery. Justifications that you continue to push.
The only question relevant to my argument is this:
Are Palestinians treated equally in the occupied territories?
If the answer is "No", we are talking about a group that is subject to discrimination, which your name-calling "victim group" to justify is something I would deeply condemn.
The argument that "that faction isn't being treated equally, but they have it better than _________ place" is a straight up argument against democracy.
Beyond the question of whether it's even possible to treat factions equally, which I doubt, I would say that in this example I'm arguing *for* democracy. Israeli Arabs vote in free and fair elections, and that simply isn't the case with any other Arab country with the possible exception of Iraq (but let's not get too far off track). Pointing that out is not "a straight up argument against democracy," but the opposite - that it would be great to see other Arab countries extend to their citizens the same rights as the Israeli state has extended to the Palestinians that remained inside its 1948 borders. Democracy and equality are not the same thing, and the lack of one doesn't mean that the other doesn't exist. I feel like you are making the perfect the enemy of the good - but I will refrain from making your arguments for you, at your request.
I made a comparison to justifications for slavery. Justifications that you continue to push.
Um, now who's making peoples' arguments for them? Apparently I justify slavery - or am I justifying apartheid? I'm not sure. Please advise me what atrocities I am for or against.
The only question relevant to my argument is this: Are Palestinians treated equally in the occupied territories?
That is not the relevant question at all, since you were responding to "It probably is the case tha Arabs who are Israeli citizens are second class in varous subltle ways, but their lives on average are certainly better than their lives would be in most Arab countries." Again, you are conflating the Palestinians who live in the West Bank (not Israeli citizens) with those that live within the 1948 Green Line who hold Israeli citizenship, and those in Jerusalem, who mostly hold Israeli citizenship. I wouldn't claim for a minute that those Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are treated equally (they most certainly are not), and the Palestinians in the West Bank are definitely not either.
So what exactly should the Israelis do to treat those in the West Bank equally? Give them the vote? That would involve giving them citizenship, and probably annexing the West Bank. You can answer differently if you like (give them something else), but until they receive the full economic, political and social rights enjoyed by Jewish Israelis, they are not being treated equally. And how exactly are they supposed to get equal rights within an Israeli state and a state of their own at the same time, since national self-determination is their most cherished right? These are contradictory demands.
The Israelis don't treat them equally because they are not - not inherently unequal or somehow less human, but rather they are Jordanian nationals living in territory that was occupied as a result of war. No one treats non-citizens as equals - that's the point of citizenship. The Israeli Arabs are discriminated against, while the West Bank Arabs are taking the lumps of losing a war. But maybe, just maybe, if they blow up one more bus or shoot up one more school, they will get their equality.
Um, now who's making peoples' arguments for them? Apparently I justify slavery - or am I justifying apartheid? I'm not sure. Please advise me what atrocities I am for or against.
Neither. Your poor justifications are the same. That doesn't mean that you are using to justify the same things. "Left-Handed people are inferior because they are different!" is a flawed argument whether it's used to justify mild descrimination or full-scale genocide. That doesn't mean if you criticize the argument you are accusing someone of promoting genocide.
You're right. I apologize--I shouldn't conflate the two.
That is not the relevant question at all, since you were responding to "It probably is the case tha Arabs who are Israeli citizens are second class in varous subltle ways, but their lives on average are certainly better than their lives would be in most Arab countries."
Yes and I was saying that it's completely irrelevant. It's like saying, "Your last foster parent punched you twice a week and I only do it once." It's still wrong. When "the lumps of losing a war" involve inhumane treatment, that's wrong too. This isn't to defend any of the actions against Israel. Only to expect more from Israeli society.
Wait...you mean that left handed people aren't inferior?!?!
Sooo, because it exists freely in the real world as opposed to a vacuum or a totalitarian sensory deprivation box, it's kosher?
I'm sure that no rabbi would disagree with the content. Hence it is kosher
illinipunditposter
I'm sure that no rabbi would disagree with the content. Hence it is kosher
*boggle*