Open Thread (7/23/2008)

Apparently the city of Urbana has some problems with a possible new building for Judah Christian school:

Urbana city planners are not recommending approval of the proposed development, unless the school can address concerns about safety, loss of potential property tax revenue and land-use compatibility.

So Urbana doesn't want to rezone the property because it might cost them "potential" tax revenue from an industrial facility?  Yeah, there are a lot of people just itching to build a manufacturing plant in Urbana.

And land-use compatibility.  Is Supervalue going to be negativly impacted by a school nearby?  If the school doesn't have a problem with being near Mack's Recycling, why should the city?

This just boggles my my mind.  Who exactly is the city protecting by not allowing this to go forward?  Who is protesting this?  If the school wants to be there, and the land owner wants to sell, I am having a hard time figuring out why the city of Urbana should stand in their way.  Someone please enlighten me.

Prussing and her gang are protecting their liberalist socialist secularist humanist ideology.

At that site Judah Christian School would be a highly visible National Advertisement of the people of this community choosing to follow their faith and shun the taxeating dysfunctional morally bankrupt public schools that are the pride and glory of the Rorty-huggers and socialist tax-eaters. 

Prussing and her ilk do not dare to express their true opinion that "we don't want a private school in OUR town" or "we don't want a Christian School anywhere near OUR town", so they have to resort to various absurd pretexts to hassle the Judah school outfit into looking for greener pastures.

Since property taxes were instituted to finance public schools, the concerns about property taxes are something special.

Based on the N-G article, there might be a significant variable, such as 2/3 of the property being in a flood plain. This is mentioned in connection with the school project, but not for industrial use. Whether the use fits the projected Urbana plan, there ought to be concern about students' transportation options to a site on the other side of a freeway. This creates a large ecological footprint. A rhetorical question--why not work on design ideas to expand the facility at the present site? This could be accomplished and creates a much smaller ecological footprint.

Pattsi Petrie

Based on the N-G article, there might be a significant variable, such as 2/3 of the property being in a flood plain.

Psssh. Only liberalist socialist secularist humanists worry about things like floods. Real people of faith, like those who send their children to this Christian School put their faith in God to keep them safe from such things as floods and hurricanes.

Real people of faith, like those who send their children to this Christian School put their faith in God to keep them safe from such things as floods and hurricanes.

Ah, faith can move mountains, but Caterpillar has some ideas about earthmoving too.  They likely will trust that there is sufficient funds to get the school founded on a rock, or some rocks at least.

Wow Urbana won't allow any non for profits in its city any more because they don't pay tax's or just Christians organizations, isn’t there something about that in the constitution? I guess I have never seen such blatant discrimination by a city government.  

I am not sure how big the flood plain is but it is zoned for recreation and they are putting in a High School with football, baseball and soccer fields do you think maybe they will put those in the area zoned for recreation even if it is a flood plain? They may even put the buildings were it doesn’t flood.

As far as the noise and other issues they want to move there and put up with those issues let them.

You know Urbana is full of Christians and people of all kinds of other faiths you can’t get rid of all of them. They don’t seem to be hurting anyone, you should keep those and see if these new ones spend a little money as they travel to School and back you might make some tax money that way.

there is a difference regarding the Champaign school - it is a public school.  Taxpayers have a legitmate concern about access to a public school.  If Judah wants to build north of the interstate, I am sure they have evaluated the pros and cons of the location.

I just wanted to point out that there's nothing in the article about the school being refused because it's a Christian school. The blame that this is due to anti-Christian bias, being put forward by Run4cvrlib and Regnad Kcin, is nothing more than a persecution complex.

Taxpayers have a legitmate concern about access to a public school.

Taxpayers have legitimate concerns about safety and the traffic impact on the local area, too. Unless you think they should be exempt from their building meeting electrical code because they're a not for profit, as well?

Without having any information other than the N-G article, one could possibly speculate that this is a potential land donation, thus the owner making the inquiry rather than the school. This happens rather often in relation to siting schools on the edge of communities. The high school complex in Effingham, just off the freeway, happened because a local citizen donated the land to the school district.

Pattsi Petrie

Actually, thru the employees of the duly-elected reps:

Urbana city planners are not recommending approval of the proposed development

point taken

then she gets to take all the heat for this decision

Have any taxpayers raised objections?

I'm sure at least one of the city planners lives within the city limits and pays taxes. I'm sure that all of the elected representatives live within the city limits.

Oh, and now I'm raising objections. I pay taxes in Urbana, so I count too.

That area is not in the city limits.

So, if they could put in their own sewage treatment system, the school could remain outside Urbana, and further, the city would have no say about it at all, eh?

That area is not in the city limits.
So, if they could put in their own sewage treatment system, the school could remain outside Urbana, and further, the city would have no say about it at all, eh?

Well, it's within Urbana's extraterritorial jurisdiction, so they still have some say in it.

 I don't remember hearing Urbana whining about loosing property in the tax base every time the U of I goes into an area of Urbana like east of Wright st. on University and clears whole block of homes and businesses for expansion of the campus.

Urbana has historically cried foul about this many times over the years. Mother U has gobbled-up great tracts of land, taking them from the tax rolls.  The two very large apartment and retail developments on Nevada at Gregory are university owned, but they pay city taxes in a deal worked out as bit of 'compensation' for all of the other property they have built on over the years that went off of the tax rolls as a result of encroachment, particularly after the university started up the large research park in Champaign that is all on the tax rolls, but having for years consistently taken land off of Urbana's plate.

Turn that around.  If property in your neighborhood was zoned for single family (which would allow a school) and someone wanted to rezone the lot next to your house for industrial use, would you be in favor of that?  There is a reason we have zoning districts.  It is to prevent incompatible uses.

It is to prevent more intrusive uses from hurting the value of existing property.  Putting a factory next to my house hurts the value of my house, but I don't think putting a school next to Supervalue hurts their value at all.

Seems to me that the objection stems from the location of this property.  It is a pretty prime piece of real estate, something that could attract a lot of traffic from the interstate if used correctly.  To place a school there, which will not pay taxes, is like giving away a potential future goldmine.  It makes sense to me why the city would object.

I was actually surprised that Judah has non-profit status.  Don't they charge tuition?  I know their kids don't do as well as the public school students on standardized tests, but that obviously hasn't stopped lots of families from placing their kids in that school.  And the business model seems to be working pretty well - they're ready to expand.  Why aren't they paying taxes like any other business in town?

Parochial schools are usually nonprofit.  I wondered whether the city was concerned that some of the issues - proximity to industrial areas, roads, etc - would become its problem if Judah was allowed to build there.

The function of government is to serve the people.   The WQ needs to understand that Urbana is not a monarchy nor an oligarchy and the only reason that she and her ilk are in power is to provide services more efficiently than the people could if government did not exist.  The question has to be:  If the question of allowing Judah to build on the site was brought before the informed populace of Urbana, what would the decision be? 

My opinion is that we were not given this land to have it become the province of tax-eaters.  Given that nearly all who send their children to Judah are also paying for the public schools with their tax dollars yet they still cannot get satisfactory education for their children and are compelled  to seek this service in the private sector, it is totally absurd for the government sector to interfere with the private school or to punish it by claiming a loss of right to tax the land and the people.

The function of government is to serve the people.

Right.  ALL the people, not just the group that you decide needs special treatment because they happen to align with your personal paradigm of how the world could/should/did work.  Just because Judah is an evangelical Christian school doesn't mean it deserves special treatment one way or the other.

The question has to be:  If the question of allowing Judah to build on the site was brought before the informed populace of Urbana, what would the decision be?

I'm not sure this is a relevant question at all.  We don't live in a direct democracy, we live in a federalist republic.  Which means we vote for people to take care of this kind of business for us.  If we don't like the job they do we can vote for the other gal next time. 

... they still cannot get satisfactory education for their children and are compelled  to seek this service in the private sector,

I won't bother guessing what is "compelling" parents to send their kids to Judah.  Maybe they want their child to be reassured that God really did create the earth in seven days, or that dinosaur bones are the work of the devil?

My religious beliefs most closely align with the Judah schools, but I would never send my kids there.  Of course all of that is irrelevant - the city is obligated to do what is best for the city, not what is best for the evangelical Christians.

What the heck is "WQ"? I asked in another thread but don't recall finding out (or perhaps I overlooked it).

An abbreviation? For what?

What the heck is "WQ"? I asked in another thread but don't recall finding out (or perhaps I overlooked it).

"Welfare Queen", if I recall correctly.  A pretty common phrase used by the Acolytes of his holy Paulness.

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At some point we have to trust the government. - redstatewannabe on 2008-06-12 at 1:14pm

I thought a large part of the site was zoned for recreation wouldn't that put smaller children then High School student at the site? They won't draw an industrail plant because that industry won't be able to use the whole site bacause they won't be allowed to build on the flood plain like a school will can. They can wait till hell freezes over and turn it into a park which won't pay any tax's either. A school will at least draw people to the area to buy products in Urbana.

I thought a large part of the site was zoned for recreation wouldn't that put smaller children then High School student at the site?

The zone is probably currently CRE, but it's slated to become industrial whenever it's annexed in accordance with the 2005 comprehensive plan. I presume whatever portion of this site can't be built for industry due to flood plain will stay CRE.

A school will at least draw people to the area to buy products in Urbana.

I don't think Urbana is against having the school. But it clearly is against having a school in Urbana surrounded by heavy industry.

I am often critical of the city of Urbana. But I also often appreciate the things they do right. For some of you people, though, Urbana just never does anything right. It doesn't matter what they do. When they add a business, you find a reason to complain. When they protect an area for a future intended use (one which was debated by the public for years during the comp plan process) you complain. Even when that future use will produce much more revenue for the city! I suppose that means I should ignore these discussions to save my sanity. You all should go write for the News-Gazette...I'm sure John Foreman would be happy to hire more anti-Urbana reporters.

Curious, SuperValu and UPS and the junkyard most certainly are not "Heavy Industry".  Heavy Industry is factories like steel mills, large manufacturing plants that build big stuff like boilers and giant gears, etc.  These tend to produce a lot of noise and could be somewhat polluting as well.  There is nothing going on at Lincoln and 74 that should preclude the building of a school.

As far as I am aware, there is no Heavy Industry in Champaign-Urbana.  Other than the heavy and oppressive hand of government in Urbana.

"I was told that religious organizations are exempt from real estate taxes by law in Illinois even if the function of the real estate is to make a profit."

That is not entirely true in an absolute sense.  In order to be exempt from property taxes in Illinois, a parcel must be primarily charitable in both ownership and usage.  As Run pointed out above, institutions that are primarily charitable on both of these counts qualify for exemption even if they have a positive revenue stream.  On the other hand, if a church leases their basement to a primarily commercial enterprise like, say, a McDonald's, that portion of the building would be subject to property taxes, regardless of who actually owns it.

I am sure that the intent of the remark about "spelling college" is in regard to the reports of abysmally low college graduate rates among public school attendees, particularly in the tax-eating districts of Chicago and some northern Illinois areas.

Parents send their children to the Christian schools because they provide in general a much better educational opportunity than many of the public schools.  Not all public schools are deficient.  Not all Christian schools are excellent.

Judah Christian School has a dress code and discipline, which are 2 things that the public schools should still be insisting upon.

From Judah's Web site:  

Traditional Academic Curriculum
Judah Christian School maintains an academically rigorous elementary program including phonics, reading, spelling, English, math, science, history, and Bible. We administer the Stanford Achievement test every year in grades 3, 5, 8, and 10 and our students score consistently over 3 years ahead of the national norm. We also have our scores compared with private Christian schools around the United States and have found that our students score consistently above this average as well.

I am sure you all can imagine how it really hurts deeply to have to agree with J. S. McCain on anything.  I am not sure that he and I could agree on the facts of addition, but I find the following item published in quoting him (perhaps one of his more clever handlers had a moment of temporary lucidity).  From today's WSJ:

The Greatest Scandal -  July 28, 2008

The profound failure of inner-city public schools to teach children may be the nation's greatest scandal. The differences between the two Presidential candidates on this could hardly be more stark. John McCain is calling for alternatives to the system; Barack Obama wants the kids to stay within that system. We think the facts support Senator McCain.

"Parents ask only for schools that are safe, teachers who are competent and diplomas that open doors of opportunity," said Mr. McCain in remarks recently to the NAACP. "When a public system fails, repeatedly, to meet these minimal objectives, parents ask only for a choice in the education of their children." Some parents may opt for a better public school or a charter school; others for a private school. The point, said the Senator, is that "no entrenched bureaucracy or union should deny parents that choice and children that opportunity."  (more)