News-Gazette front page on Sunday.
I found this article extremely interesting. Kudos to the N-G for writing this article and I will be making it a point to patronize one of their advertisers this week (and tell the manager that I saw their ad in the N-G).
I'm really disappointed with Craig Rost's comment in the article: "The city is not involved or concerned about the liens unless the cases went to court and a judgment were to occur and that judgment affected the building's property value, he said." We need to look beyond the maximum EAV a building can generate. If the taxpayers are going be partnering with a developer, I want Craig Rost to also be concerned about (1) local employers are getting paid in a timely manner (2) the building getting built in a timely manner so that (a) it minimizes the construction headaches for area and (b) you can be marketing a finished product more quickly.
Since my blog post "Guilty" I have spoken to service providers who claim there is history of either liens or trouble getting paid in a timely manner after providing services on M2 project. Is the lien the result of a one-time dispute of charges or is there a history of not paying service providers in a timely manner? According to at least one employer directly impacted, the article is misleading.
I have a constructive idea for Craig Rost and the City Council: on the next deal where you think it is a good idea to give land and taxpayer subsidies to a developer, require them to (1) pay local employers on time and (2) complete the building on time or possibly be required to pay us back double.
When the city partners with a developer, they put the brand of the City of Champaign on the building. A high-ranking city planner says publicly that they are not concerned about liens until those liens affect the buildings value??? Are you kidding me? Just in case I have not made it clear how I feel about this...are you kidding me?
I watched Marci Dodds propose design guidelines on campustown developments discouraging the use of dryvit. While city staff and council consider her idea, I also hope they will consider my idea.
I realize the economy is a factor impacting potential condo owners and business tenants ability to obtaining financing and that is affecting the performance of M2. On the other hand, there is abundance of able and willing contractors. I'd like to know why the building is taking so long to finish when projects like the "whopper" on campus get completed on schedule.
I want to make it clear once again: I am not opposed to the M2 project. I am very upset that two high-profile city projects (M2 and Burnham) have a history of screwing local employers and this needs to stop.
IP, the comment I referenced was unpublished. Please advise.
"IP, the comment I referenced was unpublished. Please advise."
It was an unnecessary personal attack, and I see no reason to leave it up. I unpublished your comment responding to it as well, because it quoted the unnecessary personal attack.
If someone wants to criticize the decisions made by staff (which must be ratified by the Council, for what it's worth), then feel free. There is no reason to personally attack them.
Thanks IP. I couldn't agree more.
Congrats to the News-Gazette for *finally* noticing the elephant in the room: M2 is failing, and the city of Champaign is going to be left holding the bag.
Just wondering if this $5 million dollar lien is in additon to the liens discussed on this site before.
We probably should make clear that filing a claim for a mechanic's or materialman's lien against a tract of real estate does not establish that any money is owed to the claimant until and unless the claim is foreclosed and litigated. It does nothing more than serve as notice to a prospective buyer and his lender that a dispute exists and that the possibility exists that in the future the property may be encumbered by a judgment if the dispute between the claimant and the property owner is litigated.
A general contractor may file a claim for lien for the entire amount it claims is due. A sub-contractor may file a claim for lien for claimed amounts due which may be included within the general contractors claim. Thus, the total amount claimed due in lien filings may exceed the total amount due under the project.
Claims for lien are not unusual in a large project. The fact of the filing of a claim is not evidence that any amount is due but rather that a dispute exists.
I do note that the News-Gazette article says that the lien in this case was filed "at the end of July". If the filing was newsworthy, what took the paper until October to report it?
Three Score and Ten Plus One
Keith Hays
City of Champaign is badly managed by incompetent people.
Is this comment sufficiently innocuous?
According to a prior records search, the $5m is in addition to an almost $1m in additional liens. Bringing the total to just about $6m. That search was done a month ago, more could have been added since then. It does not appear that any have been removed. Several of the liens were filed in July of 2009, so 3 months have passed, yet M2 needs more time to negotiate?? What we need is a sidebar graphic of who, how much and when they were levied, but that still won't show un-levied amounts owed - it would only show
I agree, with the ARE YOU KIDDING ME sentiment. We are going to be micro urban, indeed. Micro micro micro urban, if we taxpayers continue to fund projects to feed off other businesses, potentially causing their decline.
When calculating the cost of this development, we need to estimate the toll it's taking on these unpaid business people. Ask yourself, how long could your business go without being paid $5M? How much does it cost to file the lien? To hire the attorneys to work on settling? How many employees of these feeder businesses could lose their jobs if the bills that led to the liens are not paid?
What are Craig Rost's qualifications? Does he have any relevant education? How about business experience? Should this man really be the Director of Economic Development?
"City of Champaign is badly managed by incompetent people.
Is this comment sufficiently innocuous?"
It has nothing to do with innocuous or not. Criticize the policies with which you disagree rather than attacking the personal characteristics of those with whom you disagree. Why is that so hard? Namecalling is unpersuasive, unconstructive and unbecoming.
Of course the City has been left holding the bag in other real estate ventures.... How much did the City lose in that fiasco on N. First with that social club right accross the street from the Police Station?
"It has nothing to do with innocuous or not. Criticize the policies with which you disagree rather than attacking the personal characteristics of those with whom you disagree. Why is that so hard? Namecalling is unpersuasive, unconstructive and unbecoming."
The thread starts with a quote from a specific person, Craig Rost. Addressing his lack of qualifications, intelligence, and competence seems quite logical and reasonable under those circumstances.
I have a constructive idea for Craig Rost and the City Council: on the next deal where you think it is a good idea to give land and taxpayer subsidies to a developer.....
think again and don't do it.
Zone neighborhoods, build and maintain streets and drainage, and let developers do their thing.
"The thread starts with a quote from a specific person, Craig Rost. Addressing his lack of qualifications, intelligence, and competence seems quite logical and reasonable under those circumstances."
I (partially) disagree, and I pay the bills. Qualifications and competence are fair game, IMO. Attacking someone's intelligence because you disagree with them is unacceptable to me.
FYI, Craig Rost has taught a course in economic development in the UIUC Department of Urban and Regional Planning for a good number of years and Bruce Knight has taught a planning studio, also for a good number of years.
Pattsi Petrie
FYI, Craig Rost has taught a course in economic development in the UIUC Department of Urban and Regional Planning for a good number of years and Bruce Knight has taught a planning studio, also for a good number of years.
Is there a clout list for jobs at the UI too?
The M2 website still claims over 30% residential sales and 80% pre-leasing on the retail space. You'd think they would update or remove blatant inaccuracies.
I find it interesting that all the condo owners are also listed on the liens. I imagine that some of the owners may have to hire an attorney to navigate this process.
Attacking someone's intelligence because you disagree with them is unacceptable to me.
"the software I use to run this site doesn't have a detector for "insane conspiracy theories"
Present company excluded?
Anon 3:20, Yes, and interesting, too, to note that Nieto is listed, as well as Kulas, Sokolski, et al, on the liens. Are they personally liable for any enforcable debt then, or is it only the partnership? If not in this case, could someone with experience in this reply as to how that would usually work with an LLC? Mr. Novak?
"Present company excluded?"
Notice that I attacked the insane theories rather than the people who somehow, inexplicably believe them.
Individual members of an LLC or corporation would not have liability for debts or obligations of the entity unless they have personally guaranteed payment or performance.
projects like the "whopper" on campus get completed on schedule
Since when? Plenty of student tennants got screwed as unusal when they couldn't move in on time and they had to pour cheap throw-away sidewalks to get the County Market opened.
Individual members of an LLC or corporation would not have liability for debts or obligations of the entity unless they have personally guaranteed payment or performance.
So why list each of them on the liens? I guess in things like this, they just start naming anyone and everyone? Wouldn't seem to make sense that they would list the tenants either then?
Did anyone else see Channel 3's news tonight? Another, ARE YOU KIDDING ME. They covered the fact that new sidewalks are going in and completely ignored all the issues brought up here and in the Gazette. I guess the Gazette's the only one with nerve enough to face these questions.
You should see the hole One Main Development left on Dwowntown Normal. It's quite attractive!
"Since when? Plenty of student tennants got screwed as unusal when they couldn't move in on time and they had to pour cheap throw-away sidewalks to get the County Market opened."
Technically this is correct. As I understand it, students were unable to move in on schedule at the "whopper". Because "the whopper" was built on schedule relative to M2, that does not technically mean it was built on schedule. Thank you for the correction. Also, there is no County Market at "the whopper" aka 309 E Green. The County Market is located at Burnham.
"You should see the hole One Main Development left on Dwowntown Normal. It's quite attractive!"
Another idea for taxpayers would be to not partner with a company until we are sure they have enough financing secured to complete the project as it was proposed to the city. Having the financing lined up in advance might prevent a project from dragging on while past schedule while a developer is working to secure financing.
At the end of the day, the city needs to ensure the partners they select on behalf of the taxpayer are able to meet expectations.
Filing a lien is not much different than filing a mortgage. It stakes out your priority in the list of people who are entitled to be paid. When your banker goes to the Brookens Building and causes the mortgage you signed to be recorded at the Recorder of Deeds, he is doing it for the very same reasons these contractors filed their mechanic's liens. He wants to make sure he gets paid.
People are not generally embarrassed that thei lender recorded a mortgage on their home.
If they could do it all over again do you think any of these local contractors would have preferred to not have done the millions of dollars worth of work, for which they will eventually get paid, with interest, because they have "secured" their right to get paid by filing a lien?
Local workers were put to work, a building was built, eventually it will be filled with tenants and owners, and the contractors have now filed the paperwork to make sure they get paid. This is not all that unusual, but in a smaller town like our, folks are not used to construction financing on a large scale.
Follow Donald Trump's construction of Trump Tower in Chicago, or the sale of the Sears Tower to Willis for examples of typical lien filing on large projects. This looks like the local paper saw someone paying with a credit card at the feed store and freaked out. But I'll bet when the NG bought those multi-million dollar presses (which now sit mostly idle at the Apollo Subdivision) the financing was not secured by merely a handshake. Does anyone care enough to search for UCC secured financing documents filed concerning the News-Gazette?
Multiple posters have provided perspective that a lien is not a big deal. But the N-G went beyond that quick assumption and talked to the employers impacted. What did they say: "Wilhelm's operations manager, Doug Curts, declined to discuss specifics of the liens filed by Wilhelm or its subcontractors, other than to say the liens "speak for themselves."" Also:
Several subcontractors, whose work is included in Wilhelm's claim, have filed liens of their own. Among them is Potter Electric Service of Urbana. This is the first mechanics lien the electrical contractor has ever had to file on a project, said Jennifer McFall, the company's office manager. Potter performed just over $2 million of work, such as wiring and metering, on the project. The company is owed about $291,000, according to Potter's owner, Randy Ruthstrom.
"To anybody, $291,000 is a lot of money," he said.
Wasn't Mike Royse of One Main Development the one spearheading the movement to save Herman's job? Yes, he was interviewed on WCIA and asking people to sign petitions. Bad week all around for the Creative Class and its only Tuesday.
Driving home this morning down Neil Street and as I went through the intersection at Neil, Church and Main realized what is wrong with 2 Main!!
It's not located on Main Street - its on Church Street
No wonder they have so many issues!!!!
Sorry - could not resist ;-)
Greg Novak
"Driving home this morning down Neil Street and as I went through the intersection at Neil, Church and Main realized what is wrong with 2 Main!!
It's not located on Main Street - its on Church Street"
To be clear, M2 and 2 Main are not synonymous. What was once known as 2 Main is now Guido's, and M2's address is 301 N. Neil St.
Maybe they could rebrand:
ptomaine, ptomain [ˈtəʊmeɪn]: n
(Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Biochemistry) any of a group of amines, such as cadaverine or putrescine, formed by decaying organic matter
[from Italian ptomaina, from Greek ptoma corpse, from piptein to fall]
How many One Main employees live downtown: 0.
To be clear, M2 and 2 Main are not synonymous. What was once known as 2 Main is now Guido's, and M2's address is 301 N. Neil St.
Yes, but Greg's correct, M2 is on the corner of Church & Neil on that side of Neil. One Main is on the corner of Main & Neil. But where does REO Speedwagon way end???
How many One Main employees live downtown: 0.
First off, how many One Main Employees are LEFT?
However, good point, I think although One Main is the best place on the planet, the owners live elsewhere. Sawgrass and University Avenue?
Maybe if they each bought a condo?
Of course the City has been left holding the bag in other real estate ventures.... How much did the City lose in that fiasco on N. First with that social club right accross the street from the Police Station?
Wow. M2 is in the same category as the North First Street social club now?
And was I the only one who noticed this whilst reading the lead article in the Sunday paper: there was no mention anywhere in the article regarding the number of employees on the payroll at OneMain Development? While I would not be surprised to find out that there have indeed been significant layoffs at this real estate company (as has occurred at so many other real estate-related companies throughout the U.S.), the pricipals in the company are doing a very good job of keeping this information under wraps.
Also no discussion in that article of projects this company has attempted in other towns, and the status/success of those other projects.
While it was a reasonably well-written article, really wasn't any information in it that I didn't already know from our threads here, with the exception of the declining sales numbers. (Congrats Gordy and crew!)
"While it was a reasonably well-written article, really wasn't any information in it that I didn't already know from our threads here, with the exception of the declining sales numbers. (Congrats Gordy and crew!)"
I thought this was a great article and was very pleased that they followed up with the employers impacted. I have been hearing consistent feedback that the article fails to mention One Main Development's figurehead anywhere in the story. That doesn't bother me in any way.
I'm concerned that the notion of discussing layoffs is coming from a desire to see someone fail. I can't tell for sure where one who hopes is coming from, but I can tell from body language when talking to other people that they seem to be enjoying this for the wrong reasons. I don't feel comfortable with that line of thinking and hope that the lessons we learn from these ongoing projects are applied constructively to future projects.
I hope the points I made are taken constructively: (a) build what you propose (b) meet your schedule (c) pay employers on time. If people want to require sustainable building methods, design guidelines, mandate prevailing wage, require union, etc, I'd think my suggestions are reasonable.
I believe congrats are in order for the N-G for calling into question the signficance of the liens and the impact to employers that "speaks for itself".
I'm not sure how they can dig out of the glut of office space they've brought onto the market. Downtown retail is strong enough to absorb it over time. That said, vacancy levels are high in almost all areas of town.
This property will likely go into foreclosure. It is a byproduct of a different time from a financing perspective. An era that has since passed.
One Main's new slogan should be, "One Main . One Project".
Ouch, Anon 2:54!!
Are you aware that Marci Dodds is Julia Burnham's great- or great-great-granddaughter, and Dodds Construction has been in business for something like 80 or 90 years now?
Doesn't change the fact that this building was overhyped and built too late for the real estate cycle it was intended for; just means that not all names attached to One Main are people with little to no background in the development trade.
I didn't realize Marci Dodds was part of the One Main Development staff. And her title is???
one who hopes t...
Let's remember that while real estate development and construction are related, they are vastly different. From what I have heard, Dodds is a great contractor.
Cody and Mike were real estate investors. To my knowledge, One Main was their first project.
Marcy Dodds and father have never publicly been listed as partners in this project. The partners past and present in One Main Development and/or M2, as listed on liens & in media mentions to date are Jon Cody Sokolski, Mike Royse, Carlos Nieto, Mike Kulas, David Jones. It seems unclear if Mike Royse's sister Merry Ann and her husband Mike Howie a N-G Editor, have a financial stake in the project.
Kudos to IP for breaking this story. The liens were discussed here at least a month before local media ran the story but at least the N-G did run a story and that can't be said for WCIA or WICD, our local news leaders.
So now when is the N-G going to do a story on Clearview?
What's Clearview? I guess I don't know because whatever it is didn't promise it was going to be the Second Coming or if they did, the media didn't cover it. If it's another development that got free land from the city (taxpayers, that is), a parking deck paid by taxpayers and $1.5M in TIF monies from taxpayers, then I hope the paper runs the Clearview story in tomorrow's paper. If not, seems like you need to start a new thread to address whatever it is and whatever "they" have done.
To Anonymous @ 6:18 P--this CB minutes might give you an explanation of Clearview. http://www.co.champaign.il.us/COUNTYBD/ELUC/061016minutes.pdf
Pattsi Petrie
Actually, a $5 million dollar lien is extremely serious. Liens are filed when a financial negotiation has been unsuccessful. The filing of a lien means that work has been performed & not paid for according to schedule, or the contractors have been threatened by someone with future non-payment for work already performed which has resulted in a work stoppage. Contractors have a responsibility to stop working if future nonpayment has been threatened in order to mitigate their losses. Apparently an agreement is not working out to the financial satisfaction of the contractors. Work resumes when payment is made and an agreement is accepted by both sides. The worst outcome would be a change of contractors, lawsuits, and a lien remaining on the building for the long term. In any case, this is a big mess. It is true that this happens frequently in the world of building, however the final outcome is not always neat & tidy. It's too bad that the face of the City of Champaign has to be muddied like this. I am certain that there is some very serious discussion going on in chambers somewhere. I hope that the solvency of the developer is not at issue. Unfortunately, that seems to be more often than not, the case these days. The City made a committment which it is living up to, and I hope no one is planning on looking to the City for a "bailout". There are other more immediate local needs that are in need of financial address. The issue with the M2 situation has to be money, as filing a $5 million felonious lien would be extremely improper & could carry serious consequences. The issue is money and lots of it. Let's hope it gets worked out soon. It would be nice to get this building finished!
Marci Dodds is a Champaign Council person. She and her family are long time citizens of Champaign. She is a genuine person with a big heart & superior wit & intelligence. Her slant is always on the positive She's always looking for the rose among the thorns. A true "Rose of Champaign"!!
Is this the same Marci Dodds who is the wife of Cody Sokolski? That would seem very interesting.
i don't think that's a secret
i don't think that's a secret
Agreed; and I don't think it's very relevant either. Welcome to 2009, where husbands and wives can have separate careers, issues and goals.
Do you think they're actually going to fix those windows and the sidewalk or not?
they're going to fix the sidewalks ... but distill is another thing
Just in - Destihl is out.
how do you know?
how do you know this?
Not relevant? It may be 2009, but spouses still have common financial interests. It is certainly relevant that you have a spouse of a city council member who is receiving assistance from the city. You can certainly claim that they have different interests and careers, but to claim it isn't relevant is absurd beyond belief.
One Main has received assistance in Champaign and in Normal from taxpayers. In both cases, their promises have gone unfulfilled. As of now, the taxpayers are on the hook for failed developments which will AT BEST lead to delays in return on investment. At worst? A hole in the ground or a vacant lot which provides little or no new revenue. It is certainly relevant that one of those taxing bodies has the spouse of the man who failed to fulfill promises which have cost Ms. Dodds' constituents.
And lets be honest...if they are living under the same roof then they have common financial interests. The failures of One Main are tied to those common financial interests. This isn't six degrees of Kevin Bacon.
Anonymous 8:25pm: You assume One Main has failed. It hasn't, by any measurement. So are you actually meaning to say that M2 has failed? That remains to be seen. I, for one, am not jumping on the "M2 has failed' bandwagon, which is a popular position on this blog. So I don't think Ms. Dodds' constituents are on the line. Certainly they're not on the line with the project in Normal. And how is it that the tax payers are on the hook in any way? Didn't M2 get TIF money? Isn't that what TIF money is for?
Clearview's promises are unfulfilled and the taxpayer's built a road for the Atkins group. The taxpayers borrowed money to build the road in the middle of nowhere and they are paying it back out of tax dollars instead of the increased property taxes the Atkins Group claimed the Clearview development was going to generate. There's no building going on there. But there's no thread discussing that. No front page Gazette story. No pouncing to sneer at Atkins. Not even any questions about how many Atkins live in one of their subdivisions. I don't mean to be picking on the Atkins Group. I assume they got as caught with the economy as M2 - or the 20-story building on campus that turned into an 8 story building a couple months ago. But there's a lot more benefit of the doubt given to a development that isn't moving than is given to a development that is moving slower.
still curious about destill
But there's a lot more benefit of the doubt given to a development that isn't moving than is given to a development that is moving slower.
snot moving at all
Amee:
Every time they do a story on M2, the number of condos sold drops (usually by 2). M2 may not have failed yet, but it certainly isn't healthy, and when developers are pursuing not-for-profit tenants at reduced rental rates, I am left with a strong suspicion they are getting into serious trouble with their bankers.
If One Main hasn't failed in your eyes, then you should seriously reconsider your standards. Even if they complete both buildings at this point, the delays alone and lost revenues are a failure.
By the way, you must not understand TIFs. They are tax dollars. And they simply don't work.
Just in - Destihl is out.
If true, they ought to take the signs down. After all the press releases from One Main for every proposed idea they've had, they sure are being quiet now. The community is owed the truth. At the very least, several million dollars should buy taxpayers an honest statement as to the health and future of the project. After all, it just may be that there's something that can be done to help plan for what seems to be an inevitable changing of hands for this project.
Amee, we've addressed your confusion in prior threads. Atkins hasn't promised to save our community (as well as Normal's), hasn't made ridiculously overblown claims and as One Who Hopes T... says, isn't still claiming the project is viable even as their condo numbers fall in each published account. The louder they are, the harder they fall?
Anon 4:35pm: Who says Destihl is out? Other than you. And how do you know?
But the fury at what amounts to bad PR is what perplexes me. Who cares what the developer claimed? One Main has worked; why won't M2? Surely, if it will make the City money via paying into the TIF and beyond, why be so anxious for it to fail? It's right in the center of downtown. Why wouldn't everyone on this blog be cheering M2 on? Or trying to help it work? It's in everyone's best interest for it to work, yet all the Anonymice here are impatiently waiting for just the opposite. And why? From what I understand, the guy gives a lot of money and time to the community. He doesn't live out of town. And what did he do so wrong? Go to the press with two claims that haven't come to pass (hotel and that trader floor.) And you're giving the City a pass on a road it didn't need to build that we're all paying for because the company kept its mouth shut.
Man, this town is tough on people who are public.
Yes, let's continue to give M2/One Main the benefit of the doubt. It was only an $11 million dollar parking deck built with taxpayer money primarily built to serve the M2 development.
And let's not lump other local developers with M2/One Main. The Atkins Group has been contributing to this community for the past thirty years plus. Not only were they involved in the entire North Prospect growth, also the Apollo Subdivision (home to FedEx, Caterpillar, SuperValu, NewsGazette, Gill Athletics and many more), the Atkins West Subdivision (home to Colwell and Patterson Dental), Stone Creek, the Research Park and many other developments. Yes, Clearview has not taken off as planned but given The Atkins Group track record - I'll bet on them. There are many other local developers who complete their projects on time, pay their contractors, and don't ask for a handout from the local government.
"Why wouldn't everyone on this blog be cheering M2 on?"
Because it was clear from the git-go that the condo space was hysterically overpriced, and we've been patiently waiting for the developers to come to their senses in that regard, rather than steering their ship straight at the iceberg as they are now doing?
Wait, you mean they're really not going to build the greatest place on Earth?
Not only are they NOT building the greatest place on Earth, they're still WAY too overpriced for the market they're in (both geographically and economically)!
And they are still infuriatingly claiming it's all ok.
Yes, Amee, public people take their lumps publicly and I think the fervor of today's outrage is matched only by the fervor of initial support. Live by the sword, die by the sword. These guys are big boys, they can take their lumps. They'd probably help themselvs by just admitting what is already clear. Meanwhile, the News Gazette published this article on October the 19th and the liens are all still in force. More to come? I hope not. But when will you admit its in trouble? $10 Million in liens? $15 Million? How much more time would you like the community to give M2 and One Main Development to prove this project?
what is the update on destill
In fact, there are more liens filed every day. Here are some of the liens filed in addition to the $5Million+ lien filed and covered in that article.
10/30/09 $281,808.20 (G&L Associates, DesPlaines)
10/19/09 $203,873.55 (Duce Construction)
10/19/09 $130,006.06 (Buckert Painting & Decorating)
10/15/09 $4950 (Striech Corp, Justice, IL)
09/24/09 $418, 956 (Otto Baum)
08/11/09 $798,420 (Performance Contracting)
The other 5 liens on record prior to 08/11/09 have already been posted on this blog somewhere, but I can't seem to find a link. IP?
On October 31st, 2009 at 02:39 PM, Anonymous (not verified) said: Just in - Destihl is out.
heh, maybe somebody should have told them.
http://www.destihl.com/Locations_EE9U.html
'heh, maybe somebody should have told them.'
When was that page last updated?
10/30/09 $281,808.20 (G&L Associates, DesPlaines)
10/19/09 $203,873.55 (Duce Construction)
10/19/09 $130,006.06 (Buckert Painting & Decorating)
10/15/09 $4950 (Striech Corp, Justice, IL)
09/24/09 $418, 956 (Otto Baum)
08/11/09 $798,420 (Performance Contracting)
A few observations, if I may.
1) Those who contend that mechanics liens are often filed are partially right. However, the number of them on this M2 project is highly unusual and the fact that they seem to be picking up steam indicates to me that the businesses have waited to be paid, have exhausted efforts to come to acceptable terms with M2, and that they are nervous about the viability of the project and so are getting in line now for what they are owed.
2) The fact that a mechanics lien would need to be filed for a sum less than $5k is a terrible statement on the current M2 financial predicament. If the developer had any cash flow at all, why would they not pay that paltry sum rather than risk another lien?
3) Amee etc, please listen to reason. One Main "worked" because the businesses in it were invested in by the building's owners. That's fine, but does not a perfect business model make. The Normal project never got off the ground and M2 is in deep, deep financial trouble. Jon Cody Sokolski and Mike Royse did not change the world and they may yet change downtown Champaign for the worse. I hope not, but at least recognize the collassal bet that the city made with our tax dollars and ask yourself if you would invest YOUR money in the M2 project right now before you rattle off another list of excuses for the delays, non-payments and empty building.
4) Champaign residents should acquaint themselves with what a TIF Is and contact their councilmembers. Paying out another $500K of tax dollars to M2 given these financial troubles should be something NO ONE can support.
And congratulations IP on another scoop. We'll never hear about these other liens from the paper or local news stations.
'heh, maybe somebody should have told them.'
When was that page last updated?
This has been on their site for several months. Almost a year I believe. Someone should contact Destihls owner in Bloomington and find out. Because given the current economy would anyone still want to open a restaurant right now? Perhaps they are waiting to see what happens with M2 given all of these liens. I wonder what it would take for them legally to back out at this point? Anyone?
It is unbelievable that a developer can get away with taking thus much money from taxpayers and still never be called on to update the public on their projects status.
Has any local media besides the News Gazette reported any of this? Have the Developers other than Mike Royse been interviewed?
Because given the current economy would anyone still want to open a restaurant right now?
Well, apparently lots of people. New one in the old Smokey Bones, new one coming in the old Boston's Pizza, new one coming on Prospect south of Bloomington Road, new one in the old Office in downtown Urbana, new one in the old Timbers in Urbana. Just to name a few.
People always want to open restaurants. That doesn't mean a bank will lend them money to build out space in a building unable to offer a clean title. The number and dollar amounts of these liens are impossible for a banker to ignore. No ones going in those spaces until the liens are resolved and with more being added every week, I don't see that being likely.
It's a bit different for Atkins, Fox or other large landowners to have liens attached as they have a whole portfolio on which to rely. They can still get money from banks because of their other holdings, should they wish. In this case, One Main Development has only one other project and likely can't raise capital as they are already stretched thin. They've taken on local investors for cash infusions but can't expect much more of that if the continue to falter. The only hope they have at this point is a magical uptick in condo sales from people willing to move into a condo they can't close on until the liens are lifted. And then there's the $500k in taxpayer monies we'll be giving them come January. Not a very optimistic picture, but maybe if we all just think positive.
DEstihl sign stil up - -if they're not coming, why not take it down?
"DEstihl sign stil up - -if they're not coming, why not take it down?"
Maybe for the same reason they didn't take their website notice down, they haven't gotten to it yet. And who's going to care much about just one more broken promise around M2?
More liens were filed today.
More liens were filed today.
What liens? By whom? Please elaborate.
what? the building leans!?!
"what? the building leans!?!"
LOL. That's the funniest thing ever. :)
Destill says they are still in, but they don't expect to build until spring.
The last 15 or so posts on this thread were from that ubiquitous poster, Anonymous
Michael Fuerst
Go here for Urbana postage stamps, T-shirts and bumper stickers:
http://bozourbana.org/wordpress/?page_id=3
According to News-Gazette this morning, the condos on the south side of the M2 project won't sell due to the fire . What is the reason for the condos on the north, east and west sides?
Just in - Distihl is in. But who's going to care much about just one more kept promise around M2?
Right, amee. It's a kept promise when they don't even come close to meeting their own deadlines or claims? When was Destihl supposed to be in the building again? Wasn't it just in June that we were told it would be built this fall? Your standards for "kept promises" are interesting.
So, about the rest of the project...which promises have they fulfilled? Based upon the liens, they certainly haven't fulfilled promises to pay those doing the work. Based upon the sales, they certainly haven't fulfilled the promised occupancy. Based upon the fact the building still isn't complete, they certainly haven't kept the promises to the community about completion dates. So, please, fill us in on the "kept promises" that we seem to be overlooking from One Main and M2.
Destihl is in when it drives the first nail. Until it drives the first nail, Destihl is only planning to be in.
According to today's paper, One Main Development and M2's Dave Jones claims the fire damage to M2 was $1.8 MILLION?? Well after they PROVE that, I certainly hope the insurance companies pay the monies directly to the people doing the repairs. With a record like they have for liens and nonpayment, who knows where that money will end up otherwise.
1.8million is about 5% of the total M2 budget. It's hard to believe that much damage happened, ESP when an insurance adjuster who has been good about paying out to all the others who were impacted has said otherwise.
As for it impacting the leasing, other posts have it right. Sokolski, Royse, Jones and Schmidt have had a year to admit that Destihl was delayed because of the fire, but have claimed it's opening right around the corner until a month ago.
This is just one more excuse. The economy, the fire, etc, to avoid taking responsibility for this publically funded project. I would think Champaign residents would tire of this at some point.
Some attrition downtown was expected, they said, as it expanded. All signs point to the attrition being the loss of those who were to steer the growth.
Dear Anon 1:23--
I would argue Destihl is in when it opens its doors for business from the general public. Up until that date, it could still take years or decades to open (or keep promising it will open).
As you've probably guessed, I'm not holding my breath for a Grand Opening announcement from them between now and June 20, 2010.
But Destihl will probably open before Urbana has a Menards.
Michael Fuerst
Go here for Urbana postage stamps, T-shirts and bumper stickers:
http://bozourbana.org/wordpress/?page_id=3
But justifying Champaign's actions by Urbana's Inaction sure could end up a mess, couldn't it?
No one has made such justification
"But Destihl will probably open before Urbana has a Menards."
Destihl will probably open before the Cubs have a pennant again.
On November 9th, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Anonymous (not verified) said:
"But Destihl will probably open before Urbana has a Menards."
Destihl will probably open before the Cubs have a pennant again.
And M2 will be torn down before they win the World Series again.
Destihl will open before we get that shooting report from the state police.
M2 has more liens and broken promises than LOST has "WTF is going on?" theories.
Not at all sure what that last post means, but wish to understand this sort of vehemence against a local like Cody Sokolski? What has he done but try his best to make Champaign better?
"Not at all sure what that last post means, but wish to understand this sort of vehemence against a local like Cody Sokolski? What has he done but try his best to make Champaign better?"
Taken taxpayer money and thrown it away in a project which will not show a return on taxpayer investment. And he has done it to multiple communities.
Is Cody local? I thought he moved here after he married his wife (who most definitely is a multi-generational townie).
"Taken taxpayer money and thrown it away in a project which will not show a return on taxpayer investment. And he has done it to multiple communities."
OK, Cody might be abrasive, and maybe a bit pompous sometimes... BUT, I don't believe for one second that he has willingly tried to bilk anyone or any community out of their money. And "multiple" might be technically correct.. but 2 is more correct, and less scandelous. What would be the benefit to him of that? He lives here, has for many years, and plans to for many years to come
M2 might be in financial straights, I don't know, but it was not built or being built on money that the main investors have in their pockets... and that's not surprising, nor is it criminal... get over it. They were depending on parties being willing to rent/lease/or buy spaces from them, to keep the project on time and on budget. They are as much victims of the economy, and the fire across the street as anyone.
IF this was forseeable (and I'm not saying it was or wasn't), but IF it was, the City Staff should have seen it coming and not gone for it. But if the blame is going to be laid.. I blame non-dept. head city staff... so eager to put a feather in their cap and go work for some firm in Chicago who they subcontracted city work to, that will recommend anything and everything to counsel and they'll do it.
And btw, Marci abstains from votes involving M2....
Sure. It can't be the developers fault, it must be the government's fault.
My gripe with Cody and the rest of the Creative Class Kool-Aid drinkers is that they pushed so hard for these bogus economic theories. Bars and restaurants do not create economic prosperity, they are a result of economic prosperity. You can't create a thriving economy by building luxury condos and hipster brewery restaurants. These things spring forth from the demand for them that is created by a strong economy.
The entire Creative Class model perpetuates the myth that creating a hip culture in your podunk town is the magic formula for massive economic development. Set up a hipster playland, with luxury condos, cool bars, indie record stores and plenty of clubs with good bands. Then watch the town grow!
But it doesn't work. Forget about the success or failure of One Main and M2. Answer this question instead: what development outside of downtown Champaign has the Creative Class theory produced?
The answer is none. And this is a fair question because the premise of the Creative Class model is that pouring tax dollars into downtown development will spur growth in the community, even far away from downtown. But that hasn't happened.
The fundamental laws of safe economics demand that you don't invest unless there is a clear demand for the product. On occasion you can take a risk, but never with public dollars. These developers used millions of tax payer dollars to fund their gamble on Creative Class development and that bet has not paid off yet.
That is my gripe with Cody. There are a lot of things that could have been done with those millions of dollars. Betting on developers who clearly demonstrated an ignorance of basic economics is not one of them.
A for Anonymous: You can hate the creative class theory all you want - although it has worked in other cities. But throwing out that someone One Main or M2 has "wasted " millions of dollars because of it isn't correct nor fair. One Main, the building, has poured tax dollars into the TIF - tax dollars that wouldn't be there otherwise. It also provided a tipping point for downtown, whatever economic theory it espoused. It was also roundly derided when it was built, although it's done fine and added actual tax dollars where none existed before (which is the point of TIF.)
The millions of dollars that taxpayers are supposedly "giving away" comes from the TIF and/or Enterprise Zone. They also got the ground at a reduced rate from the City. But the City hasn't written them a check. It never does. Go back and read the deal online. The money One Main Development "gets" comes from the TIF - after they've built and started adding to it. That's why the City isn't all that worried. It made a good deal with the Developers.
But what the City did for One Main they also did for Fox/Atkins with the ihotel (3million, plus the entire research park is tax supported via the U of I), or the road it built for Atkins, or the infill money it gave to the Hilton Garden Inn, or the TIF money it gave to Mellander/Ballsrud downtown. Even in boom times, it wasn't affordable to build anything here other than cheap sprawl construction, which A for Anonymous, you may adore but which is no more sound economically than you claim the Creative Class is. The pressures sprawl puts on a City and tax base are well-documented.
As to the the Creative Class theory - it seems to me that it is useful for our town. Our biggest employer- the U of I - is the very definition of "creative class." If we can't attract high quality faculty and students, we can't have a high quality university as - I repeat - our biggest employer. Plus, our biggest employer was unable to keep its creative offshoots - like Unix - here in town because people didn't want to live here. Now, our downtown, with its hipster bars and restaurants (and it's non-hipster bars and restaurants), condos and apartments, its artists studios and boutique retail helps to keep people here. That is the whole point. The Creative Class theory as espoused by Florida, as opposed to interpreted by you, doesn't claim riches for everyone with a couple cool bars downtown. It claims to help spur just what is happening here.
As to basic ignorance of economics - I'm giving A for Anonymous that award. I'm also giving him/her the award for "least likely to admit to having an axe to grind."
"Taken taxpayer money and thrown it away in a project which will not show a return on taxpayer investment. And he has done it to multiple communities."
Wrong. It will show a return on investment. I think you would be fair in questioning whether or not the projected ROI will meet expectations, but this is a bit silly.
"Bars and restaurants do not create economic prosperity, they are a result of economic prosperity. You can't create a thriving economy by building luxury condos and hipster brewery restaurants. These things spring forth from the demand for them that is created by a strong economy."
Interesting. I agree with you to an extent. Retail is generally a function of the local economy. Employers create prosperity by employing people who drive the local economy. If you have an attractive community, employers are more likely to come to the community and employ people. Downtown champaign is an attraction. Ideally, you want more employers rather than having employers move from one part of town to the other. Furthermore, having an attractive community will attract non locals from Urbana and beyond to spend money in Champaign. Having bars and restaurants can create economic prosperity.
That said, I have NO IDEA how they are measuring return on investment and what performance measures they are keeping track of on these massive taxpayer-backed projects. It would be great if there was a project dashbaord that was available to us to view. If you put the taxpayer label on a huge project, why can't we watch progress and why are we always the last to know? Where is the project at vs. projections? How much revenue has it created vs. projections? Technically, they can simply say it's better than an unattractive lot not producing tax revenue and be correct. I don't accept that this is good enough, but I'd like to see how they track success. "Look, a grocery store!" (I couldn't help myself)
Oppotunity to remind everyone: pay your bills on time, especially to local employers!
Creative class theory -
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1313563
Huh. That's a pretty personal attack, especially considering every one of the words or phrases you put in quotes are not actually attributable to my comment. But here's your money quote:
If we can't attract high quality faculty and students, we can't have a high quality university as - I repeat - our biggest employer.
Unless I am misunderstanding your point, I believe you just claimed that the quality of the University of Illinois rests on the success of luxury condos and restaurants in downtown Champaign.
Really? Do you honestly believe that without a cool "scene" in downtown Champaign all the best faculty will flee from Illinois for the hipper environs of Ann Arbor, Cambridge, or Princeton?
This, folks, is the quintessential flaw in Creative Class theory. They actually believe that building condos and martini bars will improve the quality of the U of I. The hubris continues to stun.
Just a reminder to all about the Creative Class Theory--the theory encompasses the 3 T's--talent, technology, and tolerance. To quote Florida when he was here, "this area certainly has talent and technology, but lacks the necessary tolerance." The cities/communities that he uses as examples have a balance of all three.
Pattsi Petrie
Sorry, B, but I disagree. A project which is never completed will not show a return on investment. I'll change that perspective if M2 or Uptown One, or Uptown Two or Three ever get completed. Until then, they simply will not show ROI. If they do, it will be incremental at best and likely won't be any greater than the standard increases on previous property taxes. Is that ROI?
OK, Cody might be abrasive, and maybe a bit pompous sometimes... BUT, I don't believe for one second that he has willingly tried to bilk anyone or any community out of their money.
Does it matter if he willingly bilked the community or if he accidentally bilked the community? I am usually all for the "intent" arguments, but in this case would be happy to just get a fair assessment of the status of the project. Without blame and without prejudice, I would like an analysis of where M2 stands and a reasonable expectation for how it will progress. Can everyone agree this is fair? If so, let's call on City Council to address the issue. The Council did address the 310 Burnham project's delays and called the developer on the carpet. I think we've gotten to that point with M2 and One Main Development.
"Can everyone agree this is fair? If so, let's call on City Council to address the issue."
Agreed. How could anyone not? Because an overall "let's just be patient and wait and see what happens" approach is at the core of so very many terrible things in our world.
Exactly. Let's wait for the experts to decide before we express any opinions. I mean, look at how the News-Gazette was all over the M2-in-trouble story from the very beginning, except for all most all of it for almost the entire problem period.
Maybe the problem is M2 wasn't raised right.
I don't think there was any intent to bilk anyone. I think someone got too Howard Roark-y but ran out of mojo a long way before the finish line. Blessed are the risk-takers for they grow the economy, sometimes, but c'mon, when actual studies like the one cited above show that "creative class" stuff isn't the ticket to success after all, and the who came up with it in the first place says that CU ain't it, then maybe someone hitched his wagon to the wrong star.
"Just a reminder to all about the Creative Class Theory--the theory encompasses the 3 T's--talent, technology, and tolerance. To quote Florida when he was here, "this area certainly has talent and technology, but lacks the necessary tolerance." The cities/communities that he uses as examples have a balance of all three."
I opened the link to the creative class theory and fell asleep twice while trying to read it. I guess I better work on my tolerance.
"Sorry, B, but I disagree. A project which is never completed will not show a return on investment. I'll change that perspective if M2 or Uptown One, or Uptown Two or Three ever get completed. Until then, they simply will not show ROI. If they do, it will be incremental at best and likely won't be any greater than the standard increases on previous property taxes."
Seriously...you can't be assuming that M2 will never be completed. In the scenario where the developer isn't meeting expectations, there should be some recourse by the city to get back the property and work with another developer who can deliver. This is more applicable for the Uptown projects and doesn't seem reasonable for M2. Even if a bank forecloses and someone buys M2 at 1/2 the cost of constuctruction...and therefore allowing the investor to charge reasonable rents to tenants, the building would generate a return on investment so long as the amount of tax revenue exceeds the cash investment by the taxpayers. This gets very interesting if you expand the analysis to include opportunity cost of developing the building "creatively" instead just selling property outright to a developer who might have build something reasonable that might today have retail/office real estate generating sales tax and (possibly) more property tax. M2 would be full right now if the rents and prices weren't so unreasonble (even for a good economy). Then again, I'm sure the building is super "green", probably LEED certified, only hired union labor (and got an award for supporting the cause), doesn't use Dry Vit, etc. All the things that are most important to good project, except paying local contractors in a timely manner and providing a product at a price reasonable for the particular market.
My gut tells me the city could look brilliant by explaining how they measure success. When you go into a bank and ask for money, you propose a best case and a worst case. When the worst case still looks good and you're still making good money, you can't lose. Shouldn't the city be in this situation with a huge building that they didn't have to pay so much for, even if the developer fails? Even if M2 opens later than planned or at 1/2 the anticipated EAV? The city needs a PR person who will know not to lob softballs for critics to hit out of the park. I think the city council should start taking this to heart because you never hear about city planners losing their jobs and pensions, but you do hear about council members getting replaced. If they are in fact doing a tremendous job, you need to find a way to articulate that.
I agree that it's time for the city to tell us where things stand.
Creative Class, Micro-Urban, just new labels for the same old snake oil. There is no magic to Champaign or Normal's downtowns, nothing will get us there faster than a bunch of people being willing to work hard to build businesses downtown and even more people willing to make the extra effort to spend hard earned dollars there. Beware claims that are too good to be true.
Cliches? Yes. We all know this doesn't seem right or feel right precisely because it is all so cliche.
I would like for downtown to be healthy. I want M2 to work and I support a thorough look at exactly what is going on with it so that the speculation can be put to rest. Our inability to address it is far more damning than any mistakes that mightve been made, especially when you consider the fire, the economy and the relative inexperience of the developer. Cody should be applauded for taking risks the rest of us didn't make, but still held accountable for ensuring those risks pay off.
Given the internet, and the configuration and business patterns currently in downtown Champaign, rebuilding the pedestrian mall from the early 80's is now sagacious. Whne built, the mall was an idea before its time. Use of the new parking garage will also increase substantially
Given the internet, and the configuration and business patterns currently in downtown Champaign, rebuilding the pedestrian mall from the early 80's is now sagacious. Whne built, the mall was an idea before its time. Use of the new parking garage will also increase substantially
OR we could just stop building, demand an answer about the status of our current, unfinished building projects and be a little bit more reasonable. I vote "reasonable."
Councilmembers who are regular IP posters, will you take this issue to a study session?
"Councilmembers who are regular IP posters, will you take this issue to a study session?"
Compare promises to results.
Compare planned contruction schedule to actual construction schedule.
Compare previously projected revenues from investment to new projected reveneues from investment.
Require developer to testify why so many liens were filed on the building thoughout the building's history.
Make sure republicans do not infer out loud that a project is a success using the "look, a building!" logic.
Discuss possible ramifications of default and foreclosure by lender, or otherwise get assurances that this is not likely.
Discuss how to make large taxpayer-backed projects, and the items I listed above, more transparent to the taxpayers.
Less puff. No excuses. Just the truth.
Take advantage of the opportunity to explain why this is a win-win for the taxpayer (if applicable).
That would be an interesting study session.
Should the Champaign City Council take this under consideration, there is one more item to add to the list. When the increased revenues for a TIF district are calculated/projected, the amount of natural increase in property value ought to be subtracted from this TIF projection. However, this is never done creating a false sense of how much income has been generated by creating a TIF district.
Pattsi Petrie
Excellent point, Pattsi. One of the problems with TIFs is this very issue. It stems from the way TIF legislation allows areas that aren't actually "blighted" to be considered for TIF districts. By saying that an area's EAV isn't increasing at the same rate as the rest of the community, a TIF can be implemented. The problem is exactly as you discuss...the dollar figures don't add up when this is done.
Examining the financial increases within established TIF districts along with how the monies put into the pot from the value increases is used/spent as against what would have been the natural value increase over time related to city costs to stimulate economic development using other tools would be an outstanding masters project, if any student is reading IP.
Pattsi Petrie
On November 9th, 2009 at 09:26 PM, Anonymous (not verified) said:
Destihl will open before we get that shooting report from the state police.
What time did the Destihl bar open up today?
What time did the Destihl bar open up today?
Right after the ISP investigation report was released to the public.
Three Score and Ten Plus One
Keith Hays
Any progress on getting this on a council agenda?
Any progress on getting this on a council agenda?
But such cannot be done anonymously
Does it matter if he willingly bilked the community or if he accidentally bilked the community.
YEs, it matters. I'm not sure anyone can make the case that Cody and friends willingly deceived the community.
So the false information STILL listed on their website isn't deceptive?
7-8-2009
M2 on Neil--space going fast
M2 on Neil space is going quickly. Over 80% of the retail space is leased, 50% of the office space and over 30% of the condos have been sold.
Who in their right mind would lease or buy space from these guys?
wow, that's amazing. self-destructive, even
We were just by M2 this weekend, waiting at the light I was inspecting the south face of the building and noted window panes bowed in the middle from the heat of the fire across the street. With the glazing not meeting the window frames, I would think the building would be taking on the elements and start to deteriorate--even before it is finished. Is there a problem with the insurance? Does the city or other entities holding the loans not demand that necessary repairs be made to protect this rather large investment?
I guess, and that is all it is, a guess, that the M2 builders don't have the money to start the necessary repairs and have to wait for insurance money to fund those repairs. The liens aren't really as bad as they seem to the public, but it is difficult to get a contractor to bid on or do work when other contractors are having trouble getting paid in a timely manner. It seems Cody and Co. is out of money right now and can't afford to do the work without the insurance payments coming in from the Metropolitan insurance.
So the needed repairs will go undone, will require more money to fix later, and the dispute with the insurance companies over who has liability for the lateness and therefore more expensive repairs will continue. All the while, the building will continue to have a lot of trouble selling or renting space, making matters even worse.
But don't feel bad for Cody, he will still be drinking champagne from crystal flutes at the oh-so-chic charity events he attends.
Why the need to take personal cheap shots at the developer? What does that accomplish, or add to the discussion?
09:40 AM, I would argue the liens are really bad. If you look at the total amount of liens compared to the value of the entire project (remember a good percentage of the $41 million was for tenant improvements, which the bank will never release), it means that this project is under major water. I can't think of a single project that has a higher percentage of liens compared to total project costs.
Anon 9:40am: Oh, nonsense. Whatever money One Main Development has or doesn't have is irrelevant to the insurance issues from the fire. Just look at the hole across the street. That insurance mess hasn't been fully resolved, either. Hammer One Main on their business all you want, but the fire was nothing they did or could control. And neither are insurance companies, as anyone who has ever had to deal with one knows.
And because it apparently needs to be spelled out: the only way one gets to drink champagne from crystal flutes at oh-so-chic charity events is by GIVING money to the charity. You, too, could drink champagne from a crystal flute at an oh-so-chic charity event if you GAVE money. And we wouldn't feel badly for you.
And because it apparently needs to be spelled out: the only way one gets to drink champagne from crystal flutes at oh-so-chic charity events is by GIVING money to the charity. You, too, could drink champagne from a crystal flute at an oh-so-chic charity event if you GAVE money. And we wouldn't feel badly for you.
So you are championing the fact, then, that a person would donate monies to a charity instead of paying the local small businesses who performed work for them? It may well go on all the time, but that don't make it right. Especially if the person has made a big deal about their ethical, sustainable, good--for-all business practices.
Just look at the hole across the street. That insurance mess hasn't been fully resolved, either
Actually, the N-G article of late indicates that the other entities impacted by the fire have been very pleased with the way the insurance companies have responded and have had their claims paid. Guess once again it's just M2 spinning an excuse, right?
http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2009/11/08/one_year_after_fire_metropolitan_site_is_still_a_mess
I think the only thing you can really blame Cody for is getting stars in his eyes during a bubble, the same way the city of Champaign got stars in its eyes. If it weren't for the fire, M2 might be closer to feasibility but still almost certainly on the wrong side of the line.
I think the only thing you can really blame Cody for is getting stars in his eyes during a bubble
I think you mean "getting stars in his eyes AT THE END OF a bubble," don't you? then again, Champaign and their blowhards have always been a little behind the curve.
Anon 12:10pm: Actually, the N-G article of late indicates that the other entities impacted by the fire have been very pleased with the way the insurance companies have responded and have had their claims paid. Guess once again it's just M2 spinning an excuse, right?
No, I guess it's two different scenarios, two different buildings, two different situations. Remember, the insurance companies that are so super-duper now were the same ones the City had to threaten to take to court so that Neil St. could be reopened.
any more liens?
any more liens?
Could we just get the Recorder of Deeds to live feed the liens to this site?