In the aftermath of last night's standing-room only crowd at the Champaign City Council meeting:
Speakers chide police at Champaign Council meeting:
Dozens of voices cried for changes by the Champaign City Council on Tuesday night in the wake of the Oct. 9 fatal shooting of a 15-year-old boy.
Many people attending the council meeting called for the resignation or firing of Champaign Police Chief R.T. Finney.
Others called for repeal of a use-of-force policy clause that reportedly allows use of deadly force, if necessary, to prevent escape or resistance.
"If you try to escape the police, they can kill you," former Urbana City Council member Danielle Chynoweth said, adding that police can also use deadly force and harm someone who is deaf or has mental problems that prevent them from understanding police orders.
"Or if you are a young person, resistance can equal death," Chynoweth said.
And Champaign is taking a look at ending that policy:
Former Urbana council member Danielle Chynoweth and others said a change in the policy went into effect Oct. 1, giving officers the discretion to use deadly force to prevent someone from escaping or resisting arrest. Several people also complained about the policy allowing the use of Tasers.
La Due said he was unaware of those provisions and found them "troubling."
City Manager Steve Carter said the council request calls for a study session on the use of force within the next month. He said the council had previous sessions to talk about use of force, but that was several years ago.
Carter said the police department has been going through all policies in anticipation of an accreditation process.
"What the police department is doing now is trying to get all the policies consistent with national standards," Carter said.
Carter also said he has asked experts from the U.S. Department of Justice Office of Community Relations in Chicago to come help Champaign work on community relations.
It's going to take a lot more than that, I suspect.
Two items surfaced during the public participation at the city council meeting last night. 1. Only one citizen, during the time period I listened to the comments, brought up that the investigative team is made up of only individuals in the profession and does not include any outside the profession. The city manager did not directly respond to the comment, but did say that the use of a state level investigative team is important to the process and community. There was no acknowledgement of the expressed concern. 2. Several commenters brought up the recently changed and implemented policy of police force. Mike LaDue has used the process to put this on a future council study session agenda. I have not seen either policy to compare them. Nonetheless, my concern is the statements by several council members about not being aware of this change. This relates to transparency and communication within the city administration.
If others attended or watched the meeting, it would be very interesting to read their views of what was stated.
In addition if anyone has paper copies of the original use of force policy and the new one, it would be most helpful for quality conversation to have a content analysis of the changes, should someone have time to do so.
Pattsi Petrie
Question. And my apologies if this has already been answered in eh long thread. How long has Chief Finney been here and is he the same as the Chief R. T. Finney once in Carbondale?
Here is a source to read the current policy http://ucimc.org/files/CPDUseOfForce1009.pdf If someone finds a source to read the previous policy, please post.
Here is where one can read some information about Finney http://ucimc.org/content/finney-must-resign-says-cu-citizens-peace-and-justice
Pattsi Petrie
Spent four hours watching the Council Meeting last night
Much to digest from last night's meeting
My political vibes are that both Finney and Steve Carter are in trouble - I wonder how many people caught (what seemed to me) Mike LaDue's little cut at Steve Carter on making sure that people are in the loop - he informed Steve Carter of his request for a study session on the topic - but the change in Police Policy on the use of force seemed to have catch the City Council by surprise.
I totally doubt that the Change of Policy had anything to do what happened on Vine Street - but timing is everything - and this is very bad timing
my .02
Greg Novak
Yes, artichoke, that is the same R.T. Finney.
If one actually reads the Use of Force policy in relation to the use of deadly force, one will discover the passage that was brought up at the council meeting was not fully read.
Section 1.3.2 discusses the use of deadly force. The paragraph in question, b., mentions the use of deadly force to prevent defeat of arrest by resistance or escape. This paragraph ends with an "AND": which means it is coupled with paragraph c., which talks about a person having comitted a forcible felony with the infliction of great bodily harm.
THERE IS NOTHING STATING CPD CAN USE DEADLY FORCE JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE IS RESISTING!!
THIS WOULD BE ABUNDANTLY CLEAR IF THE URBANA COUNCILWOMAN WOULD AT LEAST READ THE WHOLE SECTION IN QUESTION.
When do you actually have to present the total arguement when the citizens that were there were only going to listen to the parts that they wanted to anyway......
This whole meeting amounted to a "yell at the police session". Without even waiting for an investigation to end, we have ads in the paper to fire FINNEY and speakers who will not accept any findings of any study group that has conflict with their opinions. Best suggestion........How about a parenting skills class for these folks.
I have a problem with drawing a conclusion on the use of force policy until the State Police have completed their invesigation. Are we now going to be a city that questions all actions by the police without having all of the information? I'm sorry that someone died--that's always a tragedy, but we don't yet know what happened. If the State Police find that CPD acted approrpriately, will we still study and change the policy to satisfy those who are unhappy? I recall some meetings where people complained that the police didn't respond to complaints in poor neighborhoods. What do they do if they respond and the alleged perpretrator runs or won't cooperate? We got rid of tasers because people didn't like those--you can't have an effective police force and tie their hands behind their backs. If the State Police investigation finds that something by the CPD was wrong, then we should look at the policy. Until then, how do we know what needs to be fixed?
Why the bone to pick with Finney? And, yes, I've read the link to his Carbondale days. Damned if you do damned if you don't. When you police neighborhoods it's racist. When you don't police neighborhoods (maybe because citizens of said neighborhoods have told and threatened you to back off and stop so much as looking at it's residents when they are out on the street) it's racist. Maybe wait until the investigation is completed before calling for resignations or firings. For all anybody knows, the teen was accidentally shot while trying to grab the officer's gun.
"Section 1.3.2 discusses the use of deadly force. The paragraph in question, b., mentions the use of deadly force to prevent defeat of arrest by resistance or escape. This paragraph ends with an "AND": which means it is coupled with paragraph c., which talks about a person having comitted a forcible felony with the infliction of great bodily harm."
This is also directly out of Illinois Compiled Statutes. The speakers failed/refused to continue to read the entire policy or law. I am sure this was just an oversight by Danielle and others with no political agenda involved.
Ms. Chynoweth there have been several postings here stating that last night you neglected or deliberatly mistated the CPD policy. When are you going to comment on these allegations or are you simply going to remain mute and let those distortions remain?
And when will the N-G amend their coverage to include this information about the statute being misrepresented?
On October 21st, 2009 at 05:16 PM, Ish1925 said:
Ms. Chynoweth there have been several postings here
I doubt she reads this forum
Michael Fuerst
Go here for Urbana postage stamps, T-shirts and bumper stickers:
http://bozourbana.org/wordpress/?page_id=3
Chief Finney Has Lost the Public’s Confidence - He Must Step Down or Be Removed
Incidents Under Police Chief R. T. Finney's Leadership 2004 - present
Compiled by CU Citizens for Peace and Justice
PUSHING FOR TASER STUN GUNS
In March of 2004, newly-appointed Champaign Police Chief R. T. Finney requests the Champaign City Council purchase Tasers for the Champaign Police Department. A vigorous public outcry in opposition to tasers, particularly from the African American community, persuades Finney to postpone the purchase of Tasers; declaring to the local media, that there first needs to be a better relationship developed between the Champaign police and the minority community.
PROHIBITING VIDEO WITNESSING OF POLICE
During the summer of 2004, Police Chief Finney is made aware that members of the African American community are videotaping uniformed police officers while officers are interacting with African Americans in the public way. According to then-state's attorney Elizabeth Dobson, Chief Finney authorized the seizure of the camera and the filing of class 2 felony eavesdropping charges against the videographers. Finney later attempted to explain his department's role in the criminal prosecution as "merely trying to get the videographers to the table for a talk." Later in 2008, the City of Champaign is forced to settle a civil lawsuit in favor of the two videographers. The documentary made from the filming of the police, called Citizens Watch, exposes to the public numerous instances of police behaving and patrolling very aggressively toward African Americans. Also in the film, the nightly campus mayhem is filmed showing police are nowhere to be found during the carousing and vandalism being done by binge drinking college students.
PUTTING OFFICERS IN THE SCHOOLS
In 2005, Finney insists School Resource Officers (SROs) be placed in both Champaign high schools. Records show Champaign Police are generating more criminal cases against juveniles and 80% of the SRO's contacts are with African American students.
SHOOTING LARRY MARTIN, WHO WAS PATROLING HIS HOME WITH A BB GUN
April 2006-Two Champaign police field training officers and a staff sergeant respond to a call of a man on a porch with a gun. Police sneak up on the man and one officer shines his flashlight into the man's face, and then shoots him with his revolver when the man asked what is going on and for the men to identify themselves. The man survives the shooting and is homeowner Larry Martin, on his own porch, holding a BB gun rifle, attempting to ward off vandals that had defaced his home earlier that week. A nationally recognized use of force expert investigates the shooting and finds the Champaign police negligent in the shooting. Later in 2008, the City of Champaign is forced to settle a civil lawsuit with a $100,000 payout to victim Martin. Chief Finney maintains to the press that his officers followed proper police procedure in the incident.
AGGRESSIVE RESPONSE TO A SUICIDE ATTEMPT
June of 2006-Responding to a call about a possible suicide attempt, Champaign police seal off an entire street and surround a car with a Franklin Middle School janitor inside, distraught over a broken relationship. Police forsake negotiations or crisis intervention in favor of ramming the car with an armored vehicle. The man flees in his car down the street whereupon he lethally shoots himself.
ATTACKING & PEPPERING SPRAYING A 17 YEAR OLD WHO WAS COMMITING NO CRIME
March of 2007-4 Champaign police officers are observed by dozens of witnesses near a church throwing a black 17 year-old against a fence, then dragging him into the middle of the street, applying knees into his body against the concrete, and repeatedly pepper spraying the youth in his face, sending him to the hospital. Police Chief Finney tells the press his officers followed proper police procedure. One of the officers later testifies at trial that Champaign police officers were given departmental orders to randomly check the I.D.s of anyone in the Douglass Park area (considered an African American neighborhood) for outstanding warrants and enter the personal information into a computer database. The youth had refused to present I.D., and had walked away from officers before he was immediately attacked, according to eyewitnesses at the scene. Police falsify a probable cause for demanding I.D. by telling the public the youth was trespassing a closed park after dark, despite the fact that the Champaign Park District was conducting late-night programming for youth in the park. The youth was never charged with trespassing to the park by the state's attorney's office, but is found guilty of misdemeanor resisting arrest and obstruction of justice over the testimony of a dozen civilian witnesses at trial.
SHOOTING OVER THE HEADS OF CHILDREN
April of 2007-Champaign police give chase to a gun-wielding suspect who police observe fleeing into the home of an unsuspecting family in a low-income neighborhood. Despite verbal warnings from eyewitnesses at the scene that there were women and children inside the home, Champaign police shoot blindly into the house, sending bullets over the heads of innocent bystanders. Chief Finney has told the press his officers followed proper police procedure. The City of Champaign offers the household $200 to not sue the City. The offer is refused and a civil case is still pending. A Champaign field training officer, Officer Mark Briggs, who was involved in this shooting and the shooting of Larry Martin is asked to resign from the force in 2009.
OBSTRUCTING THE PRESS AND MAKING FALSE CLAIMS
June of 2007-Champaign police respond to a report of a man with a gun near Westside Park by engaging in a shootout with a well-known mentally ill subject who had been living in his car by the park for almost two years. Before Police Chief Finney holds a press conference about the incident at police headquarters, Finney throws a news reporter out of the room who he does not like. Under threat of a lawsuit from the ACLU, Finney admits he was wrong to demand the reporter be removed. Chief Finney claims his officers were suddenly shot at by the man from inside his car. Ballistic evidence reveals that officers were not surprised by an attack but rather had already surrounded the car with guns drawn. One officer was injured by friendly fire, and the back windshield was blown out of the vehicle.
RESISTING PUBLIC OVERSIGHT OF THE POLICE
Fall of 2008-Chief Finney lobbies the Champaign City Council to vote against the implementation of a civilian review board to review citizen complaints against the~ police. Currently, complaints can only be done at police headquarters, citizens do not get copies of their complaints, the complaints are private, and the police themselves, decide if an officer acted improperly. Discipline to officers, if any, is also kept confidential.
A DRUNK DRIVING OFFICER ENDANGERS THE LIVES OF OTHERS
December of 2008-Champaign police detective Lisa Staples is found driving drunk in an unmarked squad car, going the wrong way on 1-72 at 2:30 a.m. The DUI case is removed from the usual traffic court judge, and in just 18 days after the incident, another judge allows for a plea bargain of court supervision so the officer can keep her job as a police officer. Under enormous public outrage over the sweetheart plea deal, Staples resigns from the police department.
FALSIFIED POLICE REPORTS
June of 2009-Champaign Police Officer of the Year for 2009, Eric Bloom, falsifies a report against a homeless man from the Tent City group. Numerous eyewitnesses at the scene saw the man toss a cell phone to another group member (who caught the phone in mid-air) to record the rough physical treatment he was receiving at the hands of police. Officer Bloom charged the homeless man with assault to a police officer, claiming the man threw the phone at another officer in order to hurt the officer. Under public scrutiny, the Champaign City attorney is considering dropping the case.
DENYING RACIAL PROFILING
June of 2005 to 2009-the statewide mandated racial profiling study conducted every year has shown the Champaign Police Department stops minority drivers at a disproportionate rate. Chief Finney has disputed the statistics generated by Northwestern University as flawed and denies his officers ever racially profile.
VIOLATING THE RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT
Members of the African American community report it is routine for some Champaign police officers to follow law-abiding African American drivers with no probable cause, are consistently rude to members of the African American community, and are extremely hostile toward African American males. Chief Finney now wants the Champaign City Council to revisit the Taser issue.
KILLING KIWANE CARRINGTON, AN UNARMED 15 YEAR OLD ENTERING HIS OWN HOME
On Friday, October 9th, Officer Norbitz and Chief Finney both drew guns on 15 year old Kiwane Carrington, an unarmed 15 year old boy, and his friend, who were trying to get into Kiwane’s place of residence throw a window during a rainstorm. Within minutes Kiwane was dead by a bullet from Norbitz’s gun. After they shot the boy, officers destroyed the back door of the house, ransacking the contents inside.
Ms. Chynoweth:
You have made several allegations that quite frankly are bold face lies. The first has to do with your statement on the use of force policy. It can be used against fleeing felons if there is a reasonable belief that their lack of apprehension is going to cause further harm to an innocent person. You forgot that part, leading one to believe that if you fight the police, you can be shot. The second I have copied and will quote directly
SHOOTING OVER THE HEADS OF CHILDREN
April of 2007-Champaign police give chase to a gun-wielding suspect who police observe fleeing into the home of an unsuspecting family in a low-income neighborhood. Despite verbal warnings from eyewitnesses at the scene that there were women and children inside the home, Champaign police shoot blindly into the house, sending bullets over the heads of innocent bystanders. Chief Finney has told the press his officers followed proper police procedure. The City of Champaign offers the household $200 to not sue the City. The offer is refused and a civil case is still pending. A Champaign field training officer, Officer Mark Briggs, who was involved in this shooting and the shooting of Larry Martin is asked to resign from the force in 2009.
Officer Briggs left the department this year to go into business for himself. ANY comments to the contrary are a lie and you know it. If this is the way that you do business i.e. lying when it suits you,. then you are nothing more than a cheap political hack.
Here is what she REFUSED to read last night........
If one actually reads the Use of Force policy in relation to the use of deadly force, one will discover the passage that was brought up at the council meeting was not fully read.
Section 1.3.2 discusses the use of deadly force. The paragraph in question, b., mentions the use of deadly force to prevent defeat of arrest by resistance or escape. This paragraph ends with an "AND": which means it is coupled with paragraph c., which talks about a person having comitted a forcible felony with the infliction of great bodily harm.
And this is why everyone stays anonymous--if you post in your own name with a wealth of information and there is a difference in opinion, some anonymous poster will personally slander you and your reputation because he doesn't have a better argument or was beaten as a child or has a small penis or some other reason while ignoring the meat of the post.
I posted earlier solutions to the problem. A few people responded favorably and then people went back into full attack mode on black children and parents and anyone who is remotely critical of the police. Here are some follow-up questions:
1. Should the police go fishing--i.e. stopping random people minding their own business? Does it matter how they choose the area of activity? What happens when we take this to the logical extreme?
2. What is the job of the police? It is to enforce order or is it to protect and serve?
3.Do police officers have some responsibility to be prepared for the situations they might face on the street? Is it their responsibility to possess the expertise to interact with people with special needs or other cultural backgrounds?
4. Is asserting one's authority when it's highly likely that no serious crime is occuring grounds for law enforcement to inflict serious injury to civilians?
5. Assuming that law enforcement officials are not infallible, how can they be supported to improve and monitored in rare cases of negligence when the blue code of silence is in effect?
As to the issue
>PUTTING OFFICERS IN THE SCHOOLS<
>In 2005, Finney insists School Resource Officers (SROs) be placed in both Champaign high schools. Records show Champaign Police >are generating more criminal cases against juveniles and 80% of the SRO's contacts are with African American students.<
I thought the Champaign School Board and the District Administration pushed for SRO's in the Champaign Schools - The Champaign Police Chief has no authority to place officers there unless requested - and the Champaign School Board is billed for those officer's service. So it was a School District Decision that Finney agreed to - and effectively the CPD picked up five additional officers - cause the school district pays for just about everything - from the police cars to the office furniture to the salaries.
So putting the blame on Finney for this is a cause of not knowing what went on at the time - I sat through the Board meeting back in 2004 and 2005 - and I don't remember seeing Chief Finney - the officer I remember seeing was Troy Daniels
If one were to do a study of Police Calls in the Urbana Schools - what is the ratio of African American students taken out in cuffs to that of non African American students. And for incidents within the schools - what is the ratio off students taken out in hand cuffs in Urbana vs in Champaign?
Greg Novak
SRO's were put in the schools at the behest of the Supertendent of Schools after he got yelled at by a student ( African American) who was arrested for a fight at Central 3 yrs ago. It was a fight that resulted in injury to staff and to students and happened between girls at the end of Seely hall. The day AFTER the fight, CPD officers on overtime were placed in the building. SRO's came after that. How one would blame this on the Chief is beyond me. Blame it on Arthur Culver. Oh BTW he is Black is he not?
To Greg Novak @ 7:52 P--I was at the board meeting just before spring break that year when the Black community was in large attendance with only 4 White citizens attending, asking the board to consider using alternative approaches to control students' behavior before approving the SROs. The Black citizens, in fact, came forth with very specific suggestions, plans, examples, success statistics (information that I personally did not know and then checked out after the meeting. The programs brought forth were most interesting, had potential, and could have been implemented with a sunset clause). The board voted to do thus. By the next board meeting there was 180 degree refusal of decision. The argument given was if a decision was not made right then and there enough time would not be available to train the SROs before the beginning of school the coming fall. What was missing was any conversations that went on "offline" to cause this flip flop in decision making. Officers could be trained at any juncture. Officers could be placed in the schools at any time. Where the pressure came from is the big unknown to the general public.
Pattsi Petrie
1. Should the police go fishing--i.e. stopping random people minding their own business? Does it matter how they choose the area of activity? What happens when we take this to the logical extreme?
I strongly oppose the fishing schemes, whether on foot or in vehicles. Exceptions would be stopping folks matching a description in the vicinity of a crime that recently ocurred, but even that needs to have reasonable limits to avoid abuse via intentional vagueness, ie stopping all black people because the suspect was black.
2. What is the job of the police? It is to enforce order or is it to protect and serve?
I'd say that it's to enforce the law, which ideally should be constructed to both involve preventing disorder as well as protecting/serving by intervening in crimes in progress and arresting suspects of crime. I don't think it's an either/or situation.
3.Do police officers have some responsibility to be prepared for the situations they might face on the street? Is it their responsibility to possess the expertise to interact with people with special needs or other cultural backgrounds?
I think that the people, through their representatives, should mandate such responsibility to them. Dealing with teenagers, the mentally ill, language barriers, etc is common and they should have guidelines and training in order to better do their job without unnecessarily putting people in danger, violating rights, etc. Unfortunately this hasn't always been the case, and the current system is hardly perfect in that regard either in spite of some improvements over time.
4. Is asserting one's authority when it's highly likely that no serious crime is occuring grounds for law enforcement to inflict serious injury to civilians?
Alone? No. Depending on the type of resistance faced, if any, could under certain circumstances, even if it is determined later that the police were entirely mistaken about a suspect/criminal issue. Generally speaking it would often require psychic power to know at the time whether they're there for the right reasons, hence why the issue of guilt is generally taken up in a court of law after investigations and a hearing of all of the relevant evidence by a judge or jury... including charges that may only include resisting arrest, assaulting officers, etc as opposed to any criminal behavior, if any, beyond that.
5. Assuming that law enforcement officials are not infallible, how can they be supported to improve and monitored in rare cases of negligence when the blue code of silence is in effect?
This is an issue that is exceedingly difficult no matter what we try to do. Officers accused of crimes have the rights afforded any other suspect, but given that they're colleagues with the folks who investigate crimes, a heck of a lot of things must be mandated to avoid conflicts of interest (such as outside police agencies who should be highly motivated to weed out misconduct among other agencies), avoiding court venues where there could be conflicts of interest with judges, as well as avoiding prosecutors who may have conflicts of interest as well, educating juries on their responsibilities, etc. I don't think we currently do enough to ensure that the blue wall is effectively torn down, especially when it comes to liability of peers lying for them. I'd be concerned about any suggestions that go too far and begin to infringe upon their rights as well though. There are probably no easy answers on this question, but it needs far more work in communities all across America to solve, as do many of the questions above.
--
Glock21 Op/Ed
So putting the blame on Finney for this is a cause of not knowing what went on at the time - I sat through the Board meeting back in 2004 and 2005 - and I don't remember seeing Chief Finney - the officer I remember seeing was Troy Daniels
If one were to do a study of Police Calls in the Urbana Schools - what is the ratio of African American students taken out in cuffs to that of non African American students. And for incidents within the schools - what is the ratio off students taken out in hand cuffs in Urbana vs in Champaign?
I agree that Finney is not to blame for the inclusion of the officers in the schools, but if there is indeed a disparity in racial demographics of students arrested, it's important to document why it is happening. Obviously, many of those explanations would fall under the responsibility of the chief of police.
Yes, such data would be very helpful.
Glock: I think your answers are very thoughtful. I'd agree almost entirely, except for 2, which may have been my misphrasing. I agree that there is a balance, but I would argue that the safety and welfare of people in the community is a far greater charge than preserving order (and I'll cheat and say "in the short run") because multiple instances in which the police prioritize order and create unsafe situations will in the long term devastate their ability to perserve order as well as hurting residents.
I would follow up your thoughtful answers by saying that part of the reason why we have not made enough progress on these issues and why the issues are so challenging lies in a long-term combination of historical disenfranchisement of portions of the community and the philosophy that confuses "being a law enforcement officer is challenging and dangerous and deserves the highest respect" with "questioning authority is disrespectful".
All of the advise people are giving that "a good parent teaches their kids to not question the police" is horribly misguided. I teach my kids to treat the police respectfully, and in the heat of the moment to act calmly and gather information while complying if possible (obviously there is a line).
I do not teach them to trust the police. I teach them to be prepared for the worst even as they expect the best. I teach them to question and challenge the police within the proper methods within the system.
But that is challenging when the system does not allow for effective community oversight of the portion of the law enforcement community that is either malicious or negligent. Based on my interactions with CPD, I find that the vast majority of officers are basically good people working for the right reasons. I'm afraid my multiple encounters with the mayor and the chief of police do not give me the same impression. I feel that their approach to the community--especially certain demographics actually has poisoned what was overall a good force.
That may sound like politicking, but it's merely an analysis based on your responses. I think that those who represent law enforcement in this town do not share your commitment to effective and just policing. Therefore, they must step down or be removed.
Pattsi P is absolutely correct at her recall of the events. The room was packed with African-American parents (you know the ones being criticized about not caring----many of the same faces I have seen at the events since Kiwane Carringtons death). So in my view, the Black community has been consistent.
I also remember that two of the three minority board members refused to sign on to the quickly assembled document that was a very large and binding contract between the city and Unit #4. I also remember that board meeting was not taped, so there is no record of that meeting. Unfortunate because one African American board member (a professor at UIUC) was incensed at the confusing language contained in the thick compilation of terms. Though he announced his frustration with being given the large document only a few hours prior to the meeting---and protested making any decision on such a brief opportunity to digest the proposed legal contract and terms and then citing a litany of paragraphs that sounded similar to the broad terms in the revised "Use of Force" policy. ANd I recall this board member stating the terms and conditions were not only too broad, but some were left with the CPD/SROs to "fill in the blanks". He ended by saying he did not feel comfortable signing off on something that appeared like a blank check.
Adding to the walk down memory lane was that the next unscheduled meeting came on the heels of the scheduled one and was filled with White parents. Supposedly they claimed they were not given equal notice or some other excuse why they demanded a special meeting---of course no Black person ever thought it was because the White parents didn't want to mingle with the Black ones----though you must admit it did appear suspect. Actually, I thought the reason was the mindset of the group. Day 1 African American parents (majority) did not want SROs and or SROs with guns. Day 2 White parents (majority) wanted SROs and guns.
Now what followed was more interesting. Finney may not have appeared in front of the school board, but he certainly made it know to City Council and gave his reasons why more SROs were needed (keep in mind there were already SROs in the schools, the issue was increasing the number so that there was one SRO in every middle and HS and not the overworked few hustling from one school to another every day). Once again the Black community came out in high numbers, many were social workers and psychologist trying to offer a more balanced approach that would not compliment the SROs if that decision went into effect, but detailed why the more balanced approach would have a long-term effect instead of the short sited one that was created in a rush to stop the hemorrhaging of White Flight from the Unit #4. Culver, who had been saddled with the burden of being told he would be held accountable for the White Flight if he did not do something quickly---instead of understanding he had inherited this problem and the proposed contract for the increased number of SROs was never going to stop the core problem or plug the White Flight. Keep in mind, there was the distain for the Consent Decree and the White community feeling Black folk were always getting something to pacify their concerns. So this Black Administration was held at gunpoint (figuratively) to do something to pacify the White parents, too. Hence---SROs
And let's refresh our minds about exactly what Finney said here in this Pundit, after that turbulent school board meeting where Black parents were protesting the SROs and guns and lack of a well thought out plan of action. This blog entry came in direct response to the Black concerned parents who took time out to voice their concerns, as well as two of the three minority School Board members---and this is only one example of how our concerns are dismissed and beaten back to submission
On April 12th, 2006 at 05:03 AM, R.T. Finney, Chief of Police (not verified) said:
Not every contact with the police is negative. Not every contact is positive. 121 police officers are going to posess varible talents. Not all conducive to working in the schools. Those officers will not be placed as SRO's. SRO's will be placed based on Unit#4, Community, and the police department recommending each officer who applies. The five schools in question account for over 1200 calls per year per 180 days. These calls range from fights, batteries, guns, knives, sexual assault and any other criminal act that you can think of. Simply put, if the activity were occurring on your front lawn you would call the police. What is different about the schools. Students, staff, and others have the right to be protected as much as any other citizen in this city. The police, whether or not placed in the school, will be responding to these events daily. This is a program that will allow the officer to be more accountable to how the administation functions and thinks, and can acertain the appropriate disciplinary route for the student. In 24 years of this business, and having supervised a SRO program that started 26 years ago, I have never seen so much opposition to those who are trying to help the community. PS: The guns stay.
Hello,
Has anyone one besides me wonders why the police chief is personally out on a burglary call? I thought they were administrators? Furthermore the Champaign police have increasingly been going out of their way to find a crime these days yet they claim they are just doing their job have been witnessed on and off camera abusing the power we ALLOW them to have. I have been here in Champaign for a very long time and have came to one conclusion that the State Constitution and the U.S. Constitution have no power over the City of Champaign when a member of the community MAY have done something wrong. In Champaign there is no innocent until proven guilty and apparently now the city has implemented their own death penalty. Two CHILDREN trying to get out of the rain on their own property and now one CHILD is dead no excuse or reason will make it acceptable and you can not put a price on life. What if he was to grow up to be the next nobel prize winner or the inventor of the cure for cancer? I am very saddened by the loss of a bright future, the loss of a neighbor, and my own personal loss of faith in our city government. My only advice to law enforcement is to the future police officers of Champaign, do not take the job! The entire community is outraged not just African Americans but also the students of the University of Illinois (the only reason this city exists), parents, and prominent white business owners that fear the result of this action could be equal to the Rodney King riots. I ask anyone to read this and think about your family would you want this to happen to your child? Why are the police so scared that they have to shoot first? Is it because they have made it impossible for certain areas of the city to trust them? You can only oppress a group of people so long before they decide to end the oppression. The city will be paying a hefty sum for this terrible act and the officer will have to live with knowing he took a life, a child’s entire future over a possible criminal trespass, home invasion or … wait for it…..locked out resident. I’m super glad that they never got taser guns they would probably gave them to the school based officers and hurt more children. It is only fitting that in a state government so riddled with corruption that the little city of Champaign would transform into a similar corrupt government practice of power. We will elect new city government, so to you lackeys reading this employed by the city start looking for work. We want change and we can not take the chance of letting the city take our power to change things away. Look for a major overhaul of elected officials in the comming election Americans do not like paying for services not rendered.
When they took the 4th Amendment away
I was quiet because I didn't deal in drugs...
When they took the 6th Amendment away
I was quiet because I had never been arrested...
When they took the 2nd Amendment away
I was quiet because I didn't own a gun...
Now they have taken the 1st Amendment away
and all I can do is be quiet...
It's never too late to fight for your freedoms and rights
Either you're part of the problem.....
Or you're part of the solution....
Chief Illiniwick
The room was packed with African-American parents (you know the ones being criticized about not caring----many of the same faces I have seen at the events since Kiwane Carringtons death). So in my view, the Black community has been consistent.
In my view, if want to prove your take on consistent involvement and caring, take a racial poll in meetings that do not have "heated" issues on the agenda. Such meetings are far more productive in objectively addressing the everyday issues that help to avoid the heated ones.
Has anyone one besides me wonders why the police chief is personally out on a burglary call? I thought they were administrators?
Any administrator worth their salt spends time in the trenches, so to speak. Whether it be policing, education, factory, or white collar. One is severly limited in their ability to understand the the issues their subordinates deal with unless they are exprecienceing such along side them. It is commendable an administrator was spending time along side the "working man/woman."
My only advice to law enforcement is to the future police officers of Champaign, do not take the job! The entire community is outraged not just African Americans but also the students of the University of Illinois
There you go, let's just not have police at all! Anarchy for all. Let's not recruit new ideas and attitudes. Bad advise. I would contend the entire community is saddened and deeply concerned about how such a tragedy could happen. To say the entire community is outraged is a bit premature since none of us, including you, knows exactly how it did go down. Outrage should be reserved for where outrage is due, when all the facts are known.
It appears you are guilty of the same injustice you accuse the police of, jumping to conclusions and taking destructive action based on unfounded notions.
My guess is that the COP is a Police Officer first and an administrator second. Why can't the Chief go out on calls? The Supertentent of the Chicago Police department goes out every weekend on calls and Phil Cline did that before him, so what your complaint? That he is wanting to find out whats going on in town? Groan your one of those who would be complaining if he didnt go out all the time too I would surmise.
I watched the council meeting last night on cable....good thing I had the kids in bed. I thought there were FCC regulations about open cursing on tv? The F word, MF word and more, spilled out regularly. We even had one man ramble on about homosexuality and some incident ( unidentified) 13 years ago. Speakers poked at the mayor for going across the room for coffee, and not making eye contact with each and every speaker. I'm not so sure this type of "roast" does any good at all.
Let me point out that I was not a member of the School Board at this time so I can't speak to why the Board acted as they did
On October 21st, 2009 at 09:55 PM, Refresh_your_memory (not verified) said:
Pattsi P is absolutely correct at her recall of the events. The room was packed with African-American parents (you know the ones being criticized about not caring----many of the same faces I have seen at the events since Kiwane Carringtons death). So in my view, the Black community has been consistent.
I also remember that two of the three minority board members refused to sign on to the quickly assembled document that was a very large and binding contract between the city and Unit #4. I also remember that board meeting was not taped, so there is no record of that meeting. Unfortunate because one African American board member (a professor at UIUC) was incensed at the confusing language contained in the thick compilation of terms. Though he announced his frustration with being given the large document only a few hours prior to the meeting---and protested making any decision on such a brief opportunity to digest the proposed legal contract and terms and then citing a litany of paragraphs that sounded similar to the broad terms in the revised "Use of Force" policy. ANd I recall this board member stating the terms and conditions were not only too broad, but some were left with the CPD/SROs to "fill in the blanks". He ended by saying he did not feel comfortable signing off on something that appeared like a blank check.
Correct - The vast majority of those present were black - and Mr. Banks was very unhappy about what he was given. As to the Board meeting being taped - only the first Board meeting of the month is taped - and then only till either 9 or 10 - since I never see the tapes I'm unsure what time we are cut off. If a debate on a matter goes past the deadline - the feed is stopped though the meeting continues.
Adding to the walk down memory lane was that the next unscheduled meeting came on the heels of the scheduled one and was filled with White parents. Supposedly they claimed they were not given equal notice or some other excuse why they demanded a special meeting---of course no Black person ever thought it was because the White parents didn't want to mingle with the Black ones----though you must admit it did appear suspect. Actually, I thought the reason was the mindset of the group. Day 1 African American parents (majority) did not want SROs and or SROs with guns. Day 2 White parents (majority) wanted SROs and guns.
Special meetings must be called by Board members - which in practice is the President of the Board and the Superintendent. Board meetings MUST be posted 48 hours in advance - so the idea of holding a special Board meeting for white parents is difficult to swallow. A final vote on an issue may be held at a continued Board meeting - at which everyone is free to come back and make their point - and quite often opposing views will be heard at the second meeting that were not present at the first.
Now what followed was more interesting. Finney may not have appeared in front of the school board, but he certainly made it know to City Council and gave his reasons why more SROs were needed (keep in mind there were already SROs in the schools, the issue was increasing the number so that there was one SRO in every middle and HS and not the overworked few hustling from one school to another every day).
Unit Four did not have SRO's prior to this point in time - there were officers whose assignments including working with the schools - ie DARE and liason duties - but NO officers were permanently stationed in building as is the case of SRO's. I was in a middle school at the time - and we did not have an SRO in the building. If an incident in a building required an officer - it was a case of Hobson's Choice as to who responded to the call. Many officers work well with students - but that was not always the case.
Hiring off duty police officers was seen as a poor subsitute - which is what Unit Four started to do. The arguement to the Board by the district administration was that if we wanted trained SRO's - the process either started now - or had to be postponed for another year.
Once again the Black community came out in high numbers, many were social workers and psychologist trying to offer a more balanced approach that would not compliment the SROs if that decision went into effect, but detailed why the more balanced approach would have a long-term effect instead of the short sited one that was created in a rush to stop the hemorrhaging of White Flight from the Unit #4. Culver, who had been saddled with the burden of being told he would be held accountable for the White Flight if he did not do something quickly---instead of understanding he had inherited this problem and the proposed contract for the increased number of SROs was never going to stop the core problem or plug the White Flight. Keep in mind, there was the distain for the Consent Decree and the White community feeling Black folk were always getting something to pacify their concerns. So this Black Administration was held at gunpoint (figuratively) to do something to pacify the White parents, too. Hence---SROs
However the comments made there by Finney were the same that were given to the School Board by Troy Daniels. As to the other issues - the Superintendent had been on the job at that point for four years - issues were his issues - and he needed to have solutions. His prior school districts in Texas had used SRO's - so it was something he had experience with in the past
My .02
Greg Novak
Greg Novak
On October 21st, 2009 at 06:28 PM, mjerryfuerst said:
On October 21st, 2009 at 05:16 PM, Ish1925 said:
Ms. Chynoweth there have been several postings here
I doubt she reads this forum
Michael Fuerst
Go here for Urbana postage stamps, T-shirts and bumper stickers:
http://bozourbana.org/wordpress/?page_id=3
Actually she does and has been posting, but I doubt that she would have the backbone to actually state that her comments to the City Council on Tuesday night was a distortion about the policy. Political Hacks dont admit that they are wrong.
Adding to the walk down memory lane was that the next unscheduled meeting came on the heels of the scheduled one and was filled with White parents. Supposedly they claimed they were not given equal notice or some other excuse why they demanded a special meeting---of course no Black person ever thought it was because the White parents didn't want to mingle with the Black ones----though you must admit it did appear suspect. Actually, I thought the reason was the mindset of the group. Day 1 African American parents (majority) did not want SROs and or SROs with guns. Day 2 White parents (majority) wanted SROs and guns.
I guess I was one of those evil white people who wanted the cops in the building. You see, my son had a knife put to his throat by two young youths in gym class ( one of whom has now graduated onto armed robbery where he is finishing up his sentence for 3 Armed robberies in Champaign and Vermillion County) the second one graduated onto Burglary to motor vehicles. But I digress. I didnt want the officers in the buidling for I thought we could spend the money on teachers and books, but i realized that with the current state of affairs in the building, where parents were unwilling or unable to give their children the basic lessions in civility, that having the presence of an armed officer was the best logical choice. After all, how many people voted with their feet and moved to Mahomet, Tolono, St. Joe? In fact every spring, Tolono has its "welcome to Unit 7 parents of Unit 4 students" where potential parents are given a tour of Unit 7 .... they have postive enrollment. Has Unit 4?
Ish1925,
Enough with the attacks on Danielle. Criticize her argument, but stay away from the namecalling please.
I am a little amused/confused by the all of the comments insinuating that there is something suspicious about the chief being at this incident. Will someone please come out and just state their conspiracy theory here?
Why the head administrator is at the call may elicit some curiosity, but people keep bringing it up after it has been explained several times..
Danielle Chynoweth
- I approve of every police act in your diatribe with the exception of the officer who was drunk while driving. Otherwise, nice work. The criminal element must be brought to justice and as a taxpaying citizen who obeys the laws, I expect and demand nothing less.
Finney was there. A kid was shot. One would think that the chief of the police department could deal with a couple teens without killing them, even if his employees cannot. The buck stops with Finney, and he failed miserably.
Hardly a conspiracy theory.
Shouldn't you be doing something more productive with your time when you're on the city payroll?
wasn't Finny hurt while arresting the other robbery suspect?
- I approve of every police act in your diatribe with the exception of the officer who was drunk while driving. Otherwise, nice work. The evil blacks must be brought to justice whether or not they are breaking the law or not and as a non-black taxpaying citizen who obeys the laws, I expect and demand nothing less. FTFY.
On October 22nd, 2009 at 02:19 PM, Anonymous (not verified) said:
- I approve of every police act in your diatribe with the exception of the officer who was drunk while driving. Otherwise, nice work. The evil blacks must be brought to justice whether or not they are breaking the law or not and as a non-black taxpaying citizen who obeys the laws, I expect and demand nothing less. FTFY.
Now where in the previous posting was there any mention of race???? Your the only one mentioning that...............and what does FTFY stand for? Fighting to fullfill youth?
"and what does FTFY stand for?"
Its stands for "Fixed That For You." They're saying that the Anon 12:07 PM is a racist for their statement about controlling the criminal element.
Seems that anon2:19 is equating "criminal element" to "evil blacks." What a racist! (at least this accusation actually has some reality to base it on :-)
--
Glock21 Op/Ed
Seems that anon2:19 is equating "criminal element" to "evil blacks." What a racist! (at least this accusation actually has some reality to base it on :-)
The person was commenting on violently interning youth community from a park district activity in a predominantly black neighborhood park and shooting to death a 15 year old black boy entering one of his homes as "nice work". The implication that criminal element=black youth was pretty clear in the first post. Anyone with a grasp of American social discourse would have seen that.
It's either beyond stupid or racist, They simple made an educated guess.
Regardless, it's certainly against the guidelines of good police work that you stated earlier.
I think what makes a conservative community viable is the effective marginalization of the racist reactionaries in its midst.
Your powers to read absolute hysterical nonsense into what people have said are impressive! Obviously he was agreeing with the interpretation of those events just as you see them. Obvious because that would make absolutely no sense. And you seem to be all about that. Congrats!
--
Glock21 Op/Ed
Digging back a bit it seems that the African American community was not happy about SROs because instead of dealing with offenses in-house, the involvement of SROs meant formal criminal charging (juvenile record) as appropriate. But, with 1200 calls to 911 per year across 5 schools, something is very wrong with the behavior of some students. If they're committing acts warranting 911 calls, their behavior should be dealt with accordingly (as if it were happening on the street or on your front lawn) as opposed to in-house and no reporting to police. I think Unit 4 dodged some potential lawsuits by bringing on the SROs if I understand it correctly, as there is not the same tallying of 911 calls occurring, as 911 is already in the house. As I understand it, however, this limits public access to records of 911-level incidents occurring in the schools. I would love to have this wrong and to be able to access such records to assess the potential safety of the schools with SROs. And what I mean by dodging lawsuits is that every child has the right to a SAFE education. And with that many 911 calls the case could be made that these schools are not providing a safe education. I hope this community is not headed in the direction of Tuscon where one school district is attempting to institute separate discipline standards for black and hispanic students relative to white and other students. Lower the bar when it comes to discipline? Where is the outcry about having lower expectations for minority students?
If everyone is a racist, then nobody is. Race cannot be used as an excuse. I have a black grandson and a white grandson. The problem is not in the skin pinkment. These racist allegations are dangerous to my black grandson, because these type of remarks makes him believe that there is some justification for defying lawful authority whether that authority is a teacher, a white mother, a grandparent, or a cop. The notion that you do not have to obey the law, because you are black, creates a problem explaining why one child can be treated differently than the other.
I spoke to my grandson about this issue today. Fourty eight years ago when I was growing up in Bloomington, I snuck out of my family house to hang out after curfew with a friend. As we passed Gailee Eye Clinic I spotted a patrol car and when I realized it was past curfew I ran home, snuck back into the house, and snuck back into my room. Apparently there had been a break in at the Clinic and there were multiple cops in the area and one of them had trained his pistol on my back when my friend yelled, "don't shoot, it is just a kid." I had not thought about this for years until I talked with my black grandson today.
I told him that I believed that even the most tragic event may be part of God's plan. It was tragic that we had to kill millions of innocent Japenese with the A bomb, but how many other lives would have been lost. If this child's death is part of God's plan, I hope that it is not a message about racism, but will make some understand that we need to abide by the rules whether we like those rules or not. Maybe my experience helped him understand that this was not about race. Maybe that was God's plan. Maybe it was to suggest to some of you that we need to send our kids a different message.
.
"If everyone is a racist, then nobody is. "
Calm down, John. Nobody's saying that "everyone is a racist," just that we need to be clear on the disparity of the impact of Champaign policing practices.
As far as God's plans, I would suggest that a plan that puts a hole in 15-year-old Kiwane Carrington's chest for trying to enter a place he was welcome is a very cryptic plan indeed.
On October 22nd, 2009 at 09:12 AM, Ish1925 said:
In fact every spring, Tolono has its "welcome to Unit 7 parents of Unit 4 students" where potential parents are given a tour of Unit 7 .... they have postive enrollment.
And now Ish, you've raised my curiousity. This is the first time I've heard of this meeting, but I must admit I live in Unit 4, not Unit 7. How is this meeting publicized? I have never seen mention of it in the News-Gazette, so do you call them and get an invite, do they do ads in the small town papers and hope that the readers tell Unit 4 parents who are known by said readers to be interested in leaving Unit 4? How can I get there to see if this truly is what the meeting is about, or is it a general "welcome to Unit 7" meeting for parents of new students?
On October 22nd, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Anonymous (not verified) said:
wasn't Finny hurt while arresting the other robbery suspect?
While that is what we were told, Anon 12:43, my mind keeps flashing back to the media coverage I have seen of Finney at the scene on Vine St. He did not appear to have mud on his leather jacket, and he appeared to be walking normally and was not holding or carrying either arm as if it were hurt. I will admit, however, that to the best of my knowledge no T.V. station videotaped Chief Finney's whole front and back that day--I only saw one of his sides (the right side, I believe), and that may not be the side that he was hurt on--and if such tape exists it has not been shown on T.V. for the public to see.
On October 22nd, 2009 at 08:45 PM, John E. Maloney said:
I told him that I believed that even the most tragic event may be part of God's plan. It was tragic that we had to kill millions of innocent Japenese with the A bomb, but how many other lives would have been lost. If this child's death is part of God's plan, I hope that it is not a message about racism, but will make some understand that we need to abide by the rules whether we like those rules or not. Maybe my experience helped him understand that this was not about race. Maybe that was God's plan. Maybe it was to suggest to some of you that we need to send our kids a different message.
Might it also be possible, John, that Kiwane's death will force us to look at and possibly change the criteria by which we select our police officers, and criteria and basis for promoting certain officers to command positions within the department?
I think it's rather presumptuous to assume that God has no lessons about race to teach. My scriptural reading doesn't suggest that God wants us to shut up and abide by rules. If that's the lesson--kids need to listen to cops or they will be shot to death, then God can go stick it.
I told him that I believed that even the most tragic event may be part of God's plan...If this child's death is part of God's plan
If what you say is true, this God character sounds like he makes some really ****** plans. Good thing I don't know him.
(Edited by IP to remove profanity)
As far as God's plans, I would suggest that a plan that puts a hole in 15-year-old Kiwane Carrington's chest for trying to enter a place he was welcome is a very cryptic plan indeed.
He did enter a place a where he was welcome, and loved, and once again united with his mother and heavenly father. I can see where mortal death is a negative to those who have no faith or knowledge of a better place, and while it is not for us second guess God's motives or plan, there is or will be some good to come of this. Whether it be a closer a look at our community dynamics, what we teach or fail to teach our children, to embrace each day and the time we have with those around us. Whatever force or forces brought about this situation, rest assured God will use it for good.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
I want to tell you an all too real story of which I've had a personal connection. A single mother with four children, two just out of high school, two still in, who had become disabled some 7 years earlier in a way that caused a degenerative disease throughout her body. Her condition had spiraled down to the point that much of her time was spent in bed in agonizing pain. Physical pain from her condition, and emotional pain knowing she couldn't care for or participate in her children's lives like she felt they needed and because they had to watch her suffer. She could not work and so they had to rely on the help of others just to eat and stay in their home. Many speculated that her declining condition was going to take her life within the next year or two due to failing major body organs. One morning, five years ago next week, she was killed in a head on collision by a drunk driver. The grief and tragedy was overwhelming.
Fast forward, the woman who was pennyless' children used the proceeds generated from that tragedy through insurance, etc. to go to college and better their financial positions. Something their mother would never have been able to help them with. Not only is this woman no longer in pain but in joy, her children no longer watch her suffer. The drunk driver went prison where he is in a substance abuse program that will hopefully will put his life on a more productive path. The youngest son of the woman, the one who had been driving the car when his mother was killed, is now studying to become a youth minister. His most recent talk with a youth group was on forgiveness and healing.
God really does take ugly things and turns them into something beautiful. Your pain or grief may not allow you to see at the moment, but in God's time, it will happen.
Remember that in this case the police also took a battering ram to the house & trashed it pretty good AFTER the boy was killed. It sure looks like they were on an over the top power response.
I don't understand why people think this is about race. I'm anon@1207 that had another poster 'fix' my post. Racism last time I checked is disliking a group of people *because* of the color of their skin. This is certainly not my case nor the intention I tried to portray in my original post.
On the flip side, when talking about criminals and the criminal element, you are darn right that I dislike them and my hope is that law enforcement does what it needs to do to ensure myself, my family, and my neighbors are safe. Skin color doesn't have anything to do with this at all. If people would act right, and I mean act right by the standards of a civilized society and obey the laws, then we would have a much better world.
My solution? Bring back the draft. 4 years in the military free room and board, they get out and have some discipline, an expanded outlook on life, and the government pays for a 4 year free ride at any state school (IVG) plus the GI Bill for living money which is probably up to $1500 a month by now. For those that choose to stay they have a decent retirement after 20 years.
Sure, they could die in combat in some remote local, but the odds of that happening are probably (no stats here, just surmising) no greating that the chance of dying due to violent crime on the street.
This incident is quickly becoming a tragedy of multiple sorts. First we have the tragedy that an innocent, unarmed black youth is shot to death by the local police. And now we have the tragedy of every closet racist feeling it is time to spew hatred onto the black community because they are daring to speak out.
It is absolutely fascinating to me. We have a dead child. He was killed by the police and no evidence has been presented to show that the shooting was justified. Yet people race to the defense of the police and attack the black community in earnest, as if there is zero justification for suspicion of the police or for the calls for the Chief to resign.
Insanity. Call a sociologist or something, we have a case study in progress.
And now Ish, you've raised my curiousity. This is the first time I've heard of this meeting, but I must admit I live in Unit 4, not Unit 7. How is this meeting publicized? I have never seen mention of it in the News-Gazette, so do you call them and get an invite, do they do ads in the small town papers and hope that the readers tell Unit 4 parents who are known by said readers to be interested in leaving Unit 4? How can I get there to see if this truly is what the meeting is about, or is it a general "welcome to Unit 7" meeting for parents of new students?
Is there an actual meeting? No. Are there parents from Unit 4 and Unit 116 taking regular tours of the buildings down there? Yes. SImply look at the enrollment numbers for Unit 4 and its decline over the past several years. Look at the billboard that proudlly accounced for a new subdivision in West Champaign.... Champaign address, Mahomet Schools. Now exactly what was that developer talking about? Why would it be advantagous for a family to live in Champaign, but then bus their kids 8 miles to Mahomet when there are lots of schools within 4 miles of their new home. There must be a reason why the developer said that......
...we have the tragedy of every closet racist feeling it is time to spew hatred onto the black community because they are daring to speak out.
Who's spewing hatred on blacks??? Ramp-up the hatred and racist emotions why don't you?
It is absolutely fascinating to me. We have a dead child. He was killed by the police and no evidence has been presented to show that the shooting was justified. Yet people race to the defense of the police and attack the black community in earnest, as if there is zero justification for suspicion of the police or for the calls for the Chief to resign. Insanity.
Maybe if you open your other eye the views you express wouldn't sound so slanted. As far as spewing, IMO, it's being volleyed much more towards the police at least in the thread here on IP, for suspicion mind you. Yes there is justification for suspicion, but not for spewing based on suspicion. How about we hold our spewing for a few facts?
no evidence has been presented to show that the shooting was justified...
No evidence has been presented. PERIOD.
On October 23rd, 2009 at 10:00 AM, A is for Anonymous said:
This incident is quickly becoming a tragedy of multiple sorts. First we have the tragedy that an innocent, unarmed black youth is shot to death by the local police. And now we have the tragedy of every closet racist feeling it is time to spew hatred onto the black community because they are daring to speak out.
I have previously written that I do not subscribe to the proposition that the shot that killed the boy was fired because he was Black. I do believe that much of the reaction expressed here and in the letters to the editor of the News-Gazette has been driven by incipient racism.
That there is a tension between the police and the civilian public is evident. That there is a division between elements of the Black and White public in the community cannot be doubted. The common element expressed in by those who comment, either here or in print, is fear; fear of the public on the part of police officers; fear of police on the part of a significant element of the public; fear of THEM on the part of a significant element of US.
When the police and the public exist separate and apart from one another the fear that accompanies each interaction, when the dynamic becomes US versus Them, that powerful emotion is unleashed with often tragic results. The answer is to alter the dynamic so that the police forces are an integral part of the broader community, not adversaries to it.
Three Score and Ten Plus One
Keith Hays
On October 23rd, 2009 at 10:07 AM, San Simeon said:
Is there an actual meeting? No. Are there parents from Unit 4 and Unit 116 taking regular tours of the buildings down there? Yes.
So parents from Units 4 and 116 are touring the facilities in Unit 7. So what? Before I registered my son in parochial school, we toured a couple of different schools. When my son moved from parochial school to public school we again toured facilities. (Didn't get the school we wanted, but that's another story for another day.) You can't infer an enrollment increase from parent tours; it is also possible that after looking at those buildings and the programming offered by that district the parents chose to stay where they are at or enroll in a district other than Units 4, 116, or 7.
SImply look at the enrollment numbers for Unit 4 and its decline over the past several years. Look at the billboard that proudlly accounced for a new subdivision in West Champaign.... Champaign address, Mahomet Schools. Now exactly what was that developer talking about?
Oh, I'll agree enrollment numbers in Unit 4 have declined over the last several years. I'd be willing to bet, though, that if you add in private school numbers you will find that the total number of school children in Unit 4 boundaries has been growing at a rate similar to one that would be expected by natural population growth. In other words, Private schools have been opening and expanding.
The ads for Jacob's Landing are another issue. Part of that is the "bump" in Unit 4 boundaries, and the fact that Unit 4 has blown many opportunities over the years to trade land with Mahomet and make Unit 4's boundaries more contiguous. Suburbs have finally grown out to where the "bump" is, but I'm not aware of any homes being constructed in Jacob's Landing. Admittedly, I haven't driven past that subdivision in 16 months now, so it is possible someone has actually bought a lot there, or the developer has started a spec house.
Champaign address, Mahomet Schools. Now exactly what was that developer talking about? Why would it be advantagous for a family to live in Champaign, but then bus their kids 8 miles to Mahomet when there are lots of schools within 4 miles of their new home. There must be a reason why the developer said that......
Why would it be advantageous for a family to live in Champaign, but bus their children to Mahomet? Well, the first argument is the perceived excellence of Mahomet schools. Tom Kacich did an excellent column last year where he compared test scores and socio-economic factors, and his conclusion was that Champaign schools were better.
2nd argument: Mahomet doesn't have "schools of choice", so you know what elementary your child will attend. I will concede this point to you, as I am admittedly not a fan of "schools of choice".
3rd argument: Mahomet is something along the lines of 95% white, and has a lower rate of poverty-level or low-income level families than Champaign. While poverty and low-income levels admittedly do cause challenges in educating students, there are plenty of causes for learning disabilities that are genetic and will hit you if you are a begger on the streets of Calcutta or the child or grandchild of Bill Gates or Warren Buffet. If you want your child in an enviroment where they are around white folks who tend to be middle class or higher, Mahomet and Unit 7 will make you very happy. If you want your child to be in an environment where the racial make-up of the school, and the economic backgrounds of the families therein reflects the reality of the greater planet we live on, then you will be in Champaign or Urbana.
On October 23rd, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Toldja So said:
Yes there is justification for suspicion, but not for spewing based on suspicion. How about we hold our spewing for a few facts?
Well, TS, I'm glad to see you admit that folks may just have a basis for their suspicions.
Have you had a chance to view the City Council Meeting in its entirity? Many folks (majority of them African-American, but not all) came forth and told of incidents they have had with police officers that have led them to doubt the version of the story being put forth so far. Perhaps if you could walk for a few hundred feet--not a mile, mind you, but a few hundred feet-- in their shoes, you might understand the basis for their doubts and be a little less willing to reflexively defend authority figures.
Many folks at that meeting also stated that they felt there were officers in Champaign who are a credit to their profession. I do believe the axiom "one bad apple spoils the whole barrel" was uttered at least twice, and quite possibly as many as six or seven times.
As far as SROs go:
I taught in Unit 4 for nine years, before and after SROs. I invite parents who oppose the use of SROs to come to school and "police" the fights themselves. Then we'll see how they feel about it.
No evidence has been presented. PERIOD.
Shouting doesn't make it true. Plenty of evidence has been present that a child is dead.
Also, does anyone reasonable actually think that talking about racism at all is "racist"? That doesn't make any sense. Is there more to it, or is it just a dadaist version of "I know you are but what am I?"
Plenty of evidence has been present that a child is dead.
Yes it has, but that is not what we were talking about. The discussion was about irresponsibly painting imaginary scenarios in order to blame and spew hatred. The question is still standing, who is spewing hatred onto the black community? You're statement is unfounded, at least within this venue.
That's true. In many people's eyes, the death of an unarmed black child trying to enter one of his places of residence at the hands of police is worth describing as an "imaginary scenario". To others, it's must be met with the gravest consideration.
The answer to your question is more difficult since most of the posters are anonymous or using psuedonyms (not a complaint, just explaining).
But if you look through the discussions, you'll see plenty of people who try to put this on "the failure to raise children in the black community".
I've met children who weren't the epitomy of politeness or respect for authority in EVERY community. I have yet to shoot any of them dead.
Who's spewing hatred on blacks??? Ramp-up the hatred and racist emotions why don't you?
Here's D.A. Phillips from Tuscola:
Here's Kathy Bamert from Champaign:
Here's H.D. Brown from Fisher:
I think it is fascinating that this group of people exists in the world, and they are taking their time to write in to the local paper justifying the killing of a young black man based on suppositions and, frankly, racist ignorance.
It's like you know these people are out there, but it is still shocking when they rear their ugly heads.
I think it is fascinating that this group of people exists in the world, and they are taking their time to write in to the local paper justifying the killing of a young black man based on suppositions and, frankly, racist ignorance.
It's like you know these people are out there, but it is still shocking when they rear their ugly heads.
I think it's utterly predictable that you would play the race card. I'll give you the first one, but the last two make no racial or cultural reference whatsoever. You simply used your own biases to read into what you feel they probably meant. It's not surprising. You have used the same tactics for a long time, back when you used to post under your D.Boon screen name. Just like when you start talking about how your religion is so much more important to you than others, or how you're so much better for sending your kids to Urbana schools, or how everyone who lives in Mahomet is scared of black people. I'm not sure exactly what he means by it, but I'll take Glock's lead and ask you if you want some beef jerky.
Why did all those whiners need to play the anti-semitic card against the Nazis? The only reason why people hate Jews is that people like that keep bringing it up. If we just pretend like hatred against Jews doesn't exist, it will go away.
"I think it's utterly predictable that you would play the race card."
For some people, trying to open up an honest dialogue about what it means to me a minority in this country, or this city, is merely "playing the race card."
Champaign will apparently be dragged against its will, kicking and screaming every inch of the way, into the reality of racial injustice in the 21st century.
Why did all those whiners need to play the anti-semitic card against the Nazis? The only reason why people hate Jews is that people like that keep bringing it up. If we just pretend like hatred against Jews doesn't exist, it will go away.
I think this is where we invoke Godwin's Law.
You have used the same tactics for a long time, back when you used to post under your D.Boon screen name. Just like when you start talking about how your religion is so much more important to you than others, or how you're so much better for sending your kids to Urbana schools, or how everyone who lives in Mahomet is scared of black people. I'm not sure exactly what he means by it, but I'll take Glock's lead and ask you if you want some beef jerky.
Wow. ANOTHER conspiracy theory. I suggest "D. Boon?" did it in the kitchen with a butcher knife.
I am not sure about the rest of your quote, but I think it is pretty clear that people are moving to Mahomet to get away from black people, and that Glock usually doesn't know what he means to say when he writes stuff. Otherwise, you appear to be quite nuts.
I think this is where we invoke Godwin's Law.
You mean the bastardized Godwin's Law that says, "If anyone ever tries to learn from the holocaust so nothing similar ever happens again, we must invoke Godwin's law to ensure millions died in vain?"
It's not worth comparing the magnitude of genocides, but is there really much doubt that America's historical treatment of those of African descent is one of the best comparisons to the holocaust?
There's no conspiracy theory. It's abundantly obvious to anyone who has been reading this blog for long enough to remember that you are D.Boon. You write the exact same way, you have the same opinions, you use the same 'logic' to reach your crazy conclusions. I personally don't care. I suppose you are trying to hide it because you quit posting under that screen name when you managed to piss about everyone off with your 'holier than though' routine. I'd just caution you that you are doing the exact same thing now, so you should start looking for another screen name to jump to.
Your assumption about Mahomet is a perfect example of your craziness. You complain that those dumb white people are racists and trying to escape from the blacks while you sit there in your WUNA neighborhood that is probably just as lily white as Mahomet. It's like living in Lincoln Park in Chicago.
I am not sure about the rest of your quote, but I think it is pretty clear that people are moving to Mahomet to get away from black people,
How about violent people? Mahomet seldom, if ever, has police calls to its schools. And I invite any black family to come out and join us if they would like to take that headache away from their childs education.
As one who has been involved with Unit 4 since the first year of Schools of Choice I am confident that the bar has already been set lower for one demographic. Some school staff have said as much though they won't say so on the record. White kids get written up for "crimes" as severe as eating a saltine cracker on the playground, while black kids can violate multiple policies with no repercussions. The administration would rather have the numbers look better than solve problems.
As for an outcry over lowered expectations, I was at a school board meeting several years ago where a self-described member of the Black Community demanded as much. Her comment was something like "Don't treat our kids the same way you treat white kids. We raise our kids to act different."
Not suprising....I was in Urbana High School during the lunch hour when several Black kids were, " rapping" a vulgar song in the hallway. I stopped one of the teachers and asked about this...her reply was..."...well, there just kids being kids". It's the same over in Urbana.....teachers/administrators too afraid to do anything about any of these situations...
Just another day in IlliniWhitePundit.
I'm glad they were "rapping" in air quotes. I think it's awesome that the teacher in JohnBoy's story butchers a homonym in a verbal quote too.
"Not suprising....I was in Urbana High School during the lunch hour when several Black kids were, " rapping" a vulgar song in the hallway. I stopped one of the teachers and asked about this...her reply was..."...well, there just kids being kids". It's the same over in Urbana.....teachers/administrators too afraid to do anything about any of these situations..."
Wow.
So was it in Urbana High School? At the end of the quote you say it is the "same over in Urbana." Where was this again?
And can you define vulgar?
Sorry for all the questions. I have been at UHS repeatedly in recent years and I know dozens of kids who attend school there. I also know the principal personally. If this is a real issue I am sure she'd like to know about it, but your story doesn't synch with my experiences or the overwhelmingly positive experiences of the kids I know who go to school there.
It is a serious thing to come on a public forum and smear a local high school. Please provide more details or retract your statements immediately.
This incident will be explained away as a " rare occurence". Just like any other incident....Many parents have simply given up on complaining.It's the same thing that happened when I complained about students smoking after school across from the entrance. Case in point ( check the cameras).....3:17,Monday 26, Oct.......3 students smoking, numerous school personnel on opposite side of street.....nothing done. I define vulgar as the language used at the recent Champaign City Council meeting on the shooting incident, use of the MF word in particular.
Another another day at IlliniWhitePundit. Why can't those black kids act more proper -- like white people do? No white person in history has ever said m-----f----- in a school. That's a documented fact. It just shows that something's wrong with black culture, and that's why Kiwane had to die.
This incident will be explained away as a " rare occurence". Just like any other incident....Many parents have simply given up on complaining.
Well ... is it a rare occurrence? I'm not dumb enough to believe that students don't swear at school, but swearing loudly in a hallway doesn't seem like normal behavior. You're trying to make it sound like this is going on all the time. That certainly hasn't been my experience.
It's the same thing that happened when I complained about students smoking after school across from the entrance. Case in point ( check the cameras).....3:17,Monday 26, Oct.......3 students smoking, numerous school personnel on opposite side of street.....nothing done.
My understanding is that once kids are off school grounds the school's responsibility ends. If students congregate in Carle Park to smoke cigarettes it is a police matter, not a school matter. Contact the UPD immediately.
I define vulgar as the language used at the recent Champaign City Council meeting on the shooting incident, use of the MF word in particular.
It sounds like this is the first time you've heard that kind of language. I guess the whites only schools don't swear much, eh?
Why can't those black kids act more proper -- like white people do?
Well, to be fair, these kids were "rapping." That makes any swear word incredibly offensive to old white people. Swear in a Neil Young or Johnny Cash song and you'll get lifted cans of Budweiser in approval. When Lil Wayne does it you get reasons why black kids are being shot.
Old Man take a look at their lives, they're a lot like yours ...
On October 25th, 2009 at 11:37 PM, A is for Anonymous said:
I think it is pretty clear that people are moving to Mahomet to get away from black people,
On October 27th, 2009 at 08:07 AM, A is for Anonymous said:
It is a serious thing to come on a public forum and smear a local high school. Please provide more details or retract your statements immediately.
Hypocrit???
Annonymous people you've convinced me....I've instructed my school age children to listen to rapp records and repeat loudly in the hall., and to refer to all women with the B word. Thank you for showing me some sense...
I thought there was some sort of common agreement that the use of words like MF,Bit**, etc were accepted as not for public utterage? Surely you can't be for minimizing the use of foul language.
I had a legal question that perhaps some of you lawyers on this site could enlighten us on:
Here's the fact pattern as I understand it- 1) Chief R.T. Finney and Officer Norbits are the subjects of an investigation into the death of Kiwane Carrington. There is the possibility that these officers could face involuntary manslaughter charges. 2) these charges are to be decided by the Champaign County State's Attorney. 3) On Oct. 13, well before the investigation was complete, the Champaign County State's Attorney criminally charged the one civilian witness to the actions of Chief Finney and Officer Norbits with resisting a peace officer based on the testimony of one of the possible defendants, Finney.
So the question is, how can the State's Attorney represent the People in assessing a charge against Finney and Norbits, when the State's Attorney represents the People versus the one witness to the acts of Finney and Norbits? Am I being clear here? Isn't there a conflict of interest? Shouldn't the State's Attorney have to step aside from evaluating the State Police Investigation because the State's Attorney has already sided with the police in charging the other youth?
"I had a legal question that perhaps some of you lawyers on this site could enlighten us on:
Here's the fact pattern as I understand it- 1) Chief R.T. Finney and Officer Norbits are the subjects of an investigation into the death of Kiwane Carrington. There is the possibility that these officers could face involuntary manslaughter charges. 2) these charges are to be decided by the Champaign County State's Attorney. 3) On Oct. 13, well before the investigation was complete, the Champaign County State's Attorney criminally charged the one civilian witness to the actions of Chief Finney and Officer Norbits with resisting a peace officer based on the testimony of one of the possible defendants, Finney.
So the question is, how can the State's Attorney represent the People in assessing a charge against Finney and Norbits, when the State's Attorney represents the People versus the one witness to the acts of Finney and Norbits? Am I being clear here? Isn't there a conflict of interest? Shouldn't the State's Attorney have to step aside from evaluating the State Police Investigation because the State's Attorney has already sided with the police in charging the other youth?"
That's a damn fine question.
I'm not sure why it woud be a problem for the State's Attorney's office. They can charge both parties in a fight if it's indicated. However, cases involving police defendants usually end up with a special prosecutor anyhow, so it seems like a non-issue.
I don't see a conflict of interest per se in charging the witness with a separate and distinct offense growing out of the same set of transactions. Both the witness and his adversaries may be guilty of the separate offenses with which they may be charged. However one of the consequences of charging the witness is the invocation of his right to counsel. His attorney will undoubtedly advise his client to invoke his Fifth Amendment right to remain silent thereby depriving the investigation of the witness' testimony.
That problem can't be solved by the appointment of special prosecutors.
I agree that the States Attorney has a vexing political problem in this case, especially since she is married to a police officer. Another vexing problem is presented to Champaign County's Presiding Circuit Judge whose daughter is a line police officer. Should he recuse himself to avoid the appearance of impropriety?
Three Score and Ten Plus One
Keith Hays
Should he recuse himself to avoid the appearance of impropriety?
Hasn't stopped BHO and his throng of
lobbyistspolitical consultants and contributors.Another vexing problem is presented to Champaign County's Presiding Circuit Judge whose daughter is a line police officer. Should he recuse himself to avoid the appearance of impropriety?
No. He recuses himself on any case she was involved in. She was not involved in this case.
Mr. Hays, how do you feel that the prosecutor to decide whether officers were culpable in the death of Carrington has already presented in a court of law a trier of facts based on the amazing story that a little kid (News-Gazette, Oct. 14) dislocated a shoulder, sprained a knee, and cut a grown man in a leather jacket who has training in control holds, and this testimony is based on the possible defendants in the investigation. Hasn't the State's Attorney already established prejudice in deciding any charge to bring against what are now state's witnesses in the case against the sole civilian witness in the death of Carrington? In addition, doesn't the publicity the prosecutor generated from leveling the charge against the witness in the death of Carrington now taint the witness' testimony against the officers? Like, if the surviving youth says, "We told 'em we stay there, they got mad, and shot Kiwane", the public can now say, "Ah, don't believe him, he's facing a felony."
It just seems odd, that everyone is asked to wait to see what the investigation will yield before indicting the officers of wrongdoing, then suddenly, 4 days after the incident, the state's attorney grabs whatever the subjects of that investigation say, and charge the other witness in the investigation with a felony. And then the public is asked to let this prosecutor provide a "unbiased" assessment of the investigation.
Aside from her marriage, there is her past record of prosecuting officers (not) and her working relationship with the two subjects, and possible socializing with the Chief. In sum, there are good reasons the black community will reject her claim that little Kiwane attacked Norbits.
Oh come on Anonymous 5:25pm! Don't you know how unfair it is to ask about facts in Illinois politics, when the only thing that matter is keeping up appearances?
Here, I'll show my bias -- I've known both Dan Norbits AND Jen Difanis. I like them.
And I too am curious about the demands for "justice" that seem to be guided by a particular outcome. Maybe Dan and the Chief should be jailed for their actions. I don't know. Maybe the kid who was at a special school for kids who can't behave in regular school couldn't behave. I don't know.
Maybe he behaved in a way that you and I would hope to be able to behave when confronted with jackbooted authority. I don't know.
It seems as if everyone else DOES know, though.
e.g.
"Finney was there. A kid was shot. One would think that the chief of the police department could deal with a couple teens without killing them, even if his employees cannot. The buck stops with Finney, and he failed miserably."
How do you know?
Moëtry in the Potion
I have heard good things about Norbits myself. I don't think he is as at fault as Finney since Finney was first on the scene. I suspect the busting down the door and ransacking the house was an attempt to make it look like the kids did it. I pray Norbits has the guts to tell the truth instead of the puppet show and preposterous stories the state is trying to foist on the public.
It's sad that the public is being asked to choose between believing "the good 'ol police" (depending on your perception of police behavior- which for most white homeowners is usually excellent) and the reputation of a kid that goes to R.E.A.D.Y. (which for most white homeowners is usually as Mr. McColley has volunteered, a misbehaving lot.)
I just don't see how y'all have been able to accept the word of the officers so readily when they have the most to hide, and already, the actions of the department was so bizarre shortly after the shooting.
I guess we'd have a better sense of objectivity if it was Matt Wilhelm who had been shot, eh?
An unarmed child was killed, the unarmed child was killed. the chief was there. The chief is responsible for the actions of those he leads and for his own actions. The chief is responsible for the death of the unarmed child. End of story.
The chief is responsible for the actions of those he leads and for his own actions.
Not exactly. The chief is held accountable for the actions of those he leads, and, like all of us, is held responsibile for his own actions. If the investigation determines that the chief had no personal responsibility for the teenagers death, he still may be be forced out--but he then will still be a viable candidate for similar positions elsewhere. An example of this if Richard Herman--although he decided his resigation as UI chancellor was best, he is now a candidate for the presidency of another university.
Under your logic the youth is responsible for what? Anything?
Under your logic the youth is responsible for what? Anything?
The post you responded to makes no statement about the youth.
reply link
On October 29th, 2009 at 09:43 PM, Anonymous (not verified) said:
An unarmed child was killed, the unarmed child was killed. the chief was there. The chief is responsible for the actions of those he leads and for his own actions. The chief is responsible for the death of the unarmed child. End of story.
On October 30th, 2009 at 03:05 PM, Anonymous (not verified) said:
Under your logic the youth is responsible for what? Anything?
There. Now is that better anon3:28?
Oh Miss Effie was her name
Through the west she won her fame
Being handy with the gun
But she drove the men insane
Cause she'd whip out her pistol
And shoot most any guy
And sing out this alibi
I didn't know the gun was loaded
And I'm so sorry my friend
I didn't know the gun was loaded
And I'll never, never do it again
Andrews Sisters 1949
The CPD excuse of the day...
Three Score and Ten Plus One
Keith Hays
The chief runs the department, ergo, he is responsible for the actions of his employees.
The chief fosters the culture of the police department. The chief can create an environment where reckless behavior is tolerated and protected, or he can create an environment where it is scorned and met with severe consequences.
The chief defines the policies and procedures of the police deparment. If the chief supports a complaint policy which disregards citizen input and concerns in favor of unconditionally supporting his officers, he creates a culture where officers feel they will not be held accountable for their misdeeds.
When an unarmed child is killed at the confluence of a screwed up and inappropriate culture and total lack of accountability, the death of the child is attributable to the chief.
The chief runs the department, ergo, he is responsible for the actions of his employees.
The chief is held responsible whether or not the chief could have prevented such. Potential future employers make this distinction. Hence Richard Herman is a candidate for a university president position
The chief can create an environment where reckless behavior is tolerated and protected, or he can create an environment where it is scorned and met with severe consequences.
Please tell us which of these the Chief created and the Cheif's actions you believe lead to such
The chief defines the policies and procedures of the police department. If the chief supports a complaint policy which disregards citizen input and concerns in favor of unconditionally supporting his officers, he creates a culture where officers feel they will not be held accountable for their misdeeds.
Please describe the CPD's complaint policy which you seem to consider deficient
When an unarmed child is killed at the confluence of a screwed up and inappropriate culture and total lack of accountability, the death of the child is attributable to the chief.
Please provide evidence of "the confluence of a screwed up and inappropriate culture and total lack of accountability" in the CPD
Michael Fuerst
Go here for Urbana postage stamps, T-shirts and bumper stickers:
http://bozourbana.org/wordpress/?page_id=3
On October 30th, 2009 at 04:13 PM, Keith_Hays said:
Oh Miss Effie was her name
Through the west she won her fame
Being handy with the gun
.....
Keith: Are you telling us that you consider the Andrews Sister, having sung this song and lyrics which most readers her have never hears, are ultimately responsible for the teenager's death ?
illinipunditposter
Keith: Are you telling us that you consider the Andrews Sister, having sung this song and lyrics which most readers her have never hears, are ultimately responsible for the teenager's death ?
Of course it was the Andrews Sisters! After all the policemen can't have done something wrong.
Three Score and Ten Plus One
Keith Hays
Please provide evidence of "the confluence of a screwed up and inappropriate culture and total lack of accountability" in the CPD
Take a look at the stats and the anecdotals on the disparity in how CPD treat minority youth.
Take a look at the stats and the anecdotals on the disparity in how CPD treat minority youth
Point well taken. But if you do that, you also should look at the stats and anecdotals on how young black males are extremely overrepresented in the entire criminal justice community. You can claim it's because of criminalizing drugs, but look at violent crimes.
I think it was yesterday morning (maybe two days ago) when a program on NPR said that there is a saying in the black community, "we raise our daughters, but we only love our sons."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/15/us/15crime.html
WASHINGTON — A young black man being shot to death by another black man who is an acquaintance continues to be the most “typical” homicide in the United States, according to a Federal Bureau of Investigations report released on Monday that showed an overall drop in violent crime for the second year in a row.
The F.B.I. figures show that nearly as many black people as white were homicide victims in 2008, even though 80 percent of Americans are white, compared with 13 percent who are black, according to Census Bureau figures.
To put it another way, based on census figures for white and black men of all ages, a black man was roughly six times as likely to be a homicide victim as a white man in 2008.
Of the nearly 17,000 homicide victims last year, 6,782 were black and 6,838 were white, the F.B.I. said, with men several times more likely to be victims than women. Several hundred other victims were classified as belonging to other races or as race unknown.
Of the more than 16,000 people arrested for homicide in the United States in 2008, 5,943 were black and 5,334 white, with several thousand other suspects classified as belonging to other races or as race unknown.
And if you do all of that, also look at the fact that race sometimes serves as a proxy for socioeconomic status in these types of studies.
Violent crime (whether we're talking about spousal abuse, child neglect or abuse, homocide, armed robery, etc...) is less likely to spring from an environment where there is no economic motivation, and anemic tolerance or modeling within the community for it. When officers enter an area where youths are (statistically) more likely to grow up watching their moms get beat up by their spouses or lovers, where they are (again, statistically) more likely to have suffered from abuse themselves, and where using violence as a tool to assert authority or gain property is not, as a whole, looked on as an abnormal behavior, they are placing themselves in an inherantly riskier position than they are when policing a well lit public park in a "good" [read, high SES-- or, if you prefer to look at it from a racial perspective, largely white] neighborhood. You know it, I know it, and they most certainly know it as well.
Every potentially violent situation triggers an adrenal response, some people are better at dealing with that than others. While I'm sure that it's a part of the training (and experience, I'm equally sure, helps), I'm not altogether all that surprised by the fact that situations where cops go "out of control" seem to happen most often in environments where the soundtrack to life includes a "Cop Killa" ethos. I'm not saying that the tragic loss of life that follows is justified, nor am I denying that there are racist jerks in law enforcement as there are elsewhere. Oversimplifying it, and calling it a purely racial thing, doesn't help us solve the problem, though.
My entire family on my step-dad's side is from the south side of Chicago. His dad was a cop. One brother is a cop, the other was a marine. My cousin works in the Cook County "correctional facility". I'm empathetic with what our law enforcement officers go through on the job. Still, even in a "cop family", my step-dad raised me to look at police officers as people second, and people with guns and the power to irrevocably change your life for the worse first. It wasn't an attitude of irrational fear or hatred, it was an understanding that there was a time and a place to be a smart***ed punk, and in front of the police was neither... no matter what your friends were doing or what neighborhood you were from.
Every parent should teach their child the same, regardless of the outcome in this particular tragedy.
Kem
I'm not altogether all that surprised by the fact that situations where cops go "out of control" seem to happen most often in environments where the soundtrack to life includes a "Cop Killa" ethos.
Wow. In a long run of incredibly insensitive and racist comments, this ranks right there at the top.
Do yourself a favor. Get out of Mahomet sometime and talk to someone in the black community. You are disturbingly out-of-touch with reality.
Please. I grew up in Bolingbrook, and hung out in Beaconridge (low-income housing, shooting, name it, it was happening there). My bus ride in the morning was listening to GCI, and I was one of 5 white girls on my track team. My best friend's husband is black, and their son and my daughter play together at least three or four nights a week.
If you disagree with what I have to say, you're welcome to refute it. Calling me racist and telling me to get out of Mahomet is hardly an argument.
Whether or not you like it, there is also a strong positive corrolation between low SES and spousal abuse. There is also a strong positive corrolation between low SES and child abuse. Kids who come from homes where these things happen are more likely to respond to threatening situations with violence. That's not rocket science, it's basic psychology.
Focusing on the way that the criminal justice system singles out one particular race and throws them in jail without also looking at these factors is identifying the symptom. The cure needs to identify the cause, which runs deeper than race. I'm not sure why you think that's racist, but you're welcome to explain to me why.
Kem
Don't worry Kem, that's A's (aka D.Boon's) schtick. If he doesn't like what you have to say, he'll just call you a racist.
You are disturbingly out-of-touch with reality
Pot...Kettle...
I think look at the culture that criminalizes young men that regard the police as the enemy IS looking at the causes rather than the symptoms. I agree with your critiques, justkem, but I also think you are falling into the exact same trap as those whom you are critiquing. I don't think it's worth calling that "racist". It's more like you are missing another, very important perspective. I don't think that's because you are stuck in Mahomet or whatever other vitrol laced attack was sent your way, but you should work on that perspective gap. While violent surroundings do cause the products of those surroundings to be more likely to not know how to navigate a police encounter, the perspective gap you possess is exactly what causes law enforcement officers to fail to navigate the same situations. Telling communities to improve parenting is not a solution that is likely to be effective. Giving police the proper training to perform well in the communities they police is not only part of the city's job, but if our civic leaders neglect that duty, the blood is on their hands. Expecting a 15 year old youth to make up for all of the challenges in his life is not reasonable. Expecting a grown person who has chosen to take on civic responsibility to do their ****ing job is.
Giving police the proper training to perform well in the communities they police is not only part of the city's job, but if our civic leaders neglect that duty, the blood is on their hands
Translation = treat black people differently. They raise their children different, don't you know.
Translation = treat black people differently. They raise their children different, don't you know.
Translation: I like to eat babies.
IP: Contact the your ISP: This guy likes to eat babies!
Isn't it fun to comment on what people didn't write instead of actually having to read and respond to what they did write?
I think look at the culture that criminalizes young men that regard the police as the enemy IS looking at the causes rather than the symptoms ...the perspective gap you possess is exactly what causes law enforcement officers to fail to navigate the same situations.
If I've got this right, you're saying that any police officer who approaches a situation (based on surrounding factors like location, nature of disturbance, and history of complaints) with the preconceived notion that they will be forced to respond to a physical threat needs to check that baggage because it causes "navigational errors" or a self-fulfilling prophesy (i.e., the assumption on the part of law enforcement that violence will occur causes the actual violence to occur.) I'll hold off answering that before I respond, because I'm still not sure that's what you're actually saying.
Telling communities to improve parenting is not a solution that is likely to be effective.
Unfortunately, you're right. The only solution that is likely to be "effective" is to have well integrated, racially diverse communities in which neither law enforcement nor citizens view each other as adversaries. Unfortunately, in the real world, we can't create a utopia. We can only identify the things that contribute to the dystopia and work to counteract them as much as possible. Hopefully, some small success makes the "navigation" process of our hypothetical encounter less dramatic by equipping kids who are statistically more likely to get into confrontations with law enforcement (precisely because they live in areas with higher crime rates) with the tools they need to come away from those experiences with a warning and not an arrest-- or worse.
Expecting a 15 year old youth to make up for all of the challenges in his life is not reasonable.
Respectfully, I'm not asking a 15-year-old youth, or any other youth (or adult, for that matter) to make up for all of the challenges in his or her life. I'm simply stating that my dad's approach to dealing with law enforcement seems best. Even if they're family, while they are on the clock, they have the power to end your life or your future. Your immediate goal in any encounter with law enforcement is to sit up straight and act on your best behavior-- nothing unusual to any kid who sat through church service in uncomfortable clothes. I'm not sure why this should be elevated to an unrealistic expectation.
Giving police the proper training to perform well in the communities they police is not only part of the city's job, but if our civic leaders neglect that duty, the blood is on their hands.
First you need to demonstrate that proper training hasn't been given. Whether or not it is applied is a different story.
Kem
If you disagree with what I have to say, you're welcome to refute it. Calling me racist and telling me to get out of Mahomet is hardly an argument.
It's not supposed to be an argument. It is a response to this:
I mean, you did say that, right? That the "soundtrack to life includes a 'Cop Killa' ethos?" How exactly do you expect people to respond to this kind of comment?
Some people might say that the soundtrack to life in these "environments" includes Lift Every Voice and Sing. Or maybe Rihanna's Russian Roulette. Or even Shout to the Lord. Now, I admit that I didn't grow up in Bolingbrook, but as someone who knows a lot of people in the black community here in C/U I take offense at the idea that they have a "Cop Killa" ethos. I think you are just wrong about that, and trying to use it as an explanation of why this young man was shot to death by the police is ... extremely unfortunate.
Again, I suggest you spend a little more time in the black community before you come onto a public forum stating your opinion about that community.
Translation = treat black people differently. They raise their children different, don't you know.
This is a news flash: Black people are different than white people. Specifically, they have a historically different relationship with the police and American government than white Americans. It would be nice if we could just snap our fingers and erase all of that history, but unfortunately it isn't that easy.
What appears to be very easy is to pretend that if black people just acted more like white people then their kids wouldn't be shot to death by the police. If only they all followed Kem's father's advice then this tragedy would have been avoided. Again ... it is their responsibility to do the heavy lifting. They are the ones who need to change because, after all, the cops could kill them if they don't act like white people. What more motivation do they need?
It is an interesting theory, and it is obviously a lot easier than trying to explain that the police might need to respond to different Americans in different ways. But I'd rather not be the one proposing this solution, for obvious reasons.
What's really amusing to me is that you seem to think the Cop Killer ethos is limited to one particular race. You need to sit down with Marshall Mathers and have a chat. The whole point of my original post was that race sometimes serves as a proxy for low SES. Low SES is linked to the criminal justice system precisely because it is linked with violent behaviors, and blacks are disproportionately impacted by poverty. So the statistics on homocides, which can be used to demonstrate that lethal threats are more likely to occur in minority neighborhoods, are skewed a bit. That was it.
Corrolation does not imply causation. Get a freaking grip on yourself, man.
Black people are different than white people.
You call me racist?
People are people. The relationships we have with each other are complex. In general, yes... if I'm a white punk kid hanging way past curfew out in the part of Bolingbrook where whites are in the minority by a long shot, and a black cop asks me for my ID, I'm gonna show him my ID and be polite. Race does (unfortunately) matter when it comes to interactions with the law, but there are things you can do to minimize conflict. Hopefully, the real jerks are weeded out. Sometimes they aren't. When dealing with people who have power over you (and any officer of the law has power over you, it's an unequal relationship by definition), it's important to remember that the nail that sticks up sometimes gets hammered.
If you don't think police already repsond to different people in different ways, to me it sounds like you've never had a job that required you to talk to John Q. Public. It's kind of a natural thing that people do, you know? We respond to each other as human beings and attempt to do our best to communicate with one another. It often demands that we bite our tongues or find a different way of saying things when what we want to say won't facilitate that process and may escalate into something altogether unproductive.
At least I do. Your preferred mode of operation seems to be, here's a Wikipedia link that says I know all about the place you grew up in, so I know you don't know jack about what it's like to live in the worst neighborhoods in that area, with drugs all around and people getting stabbed and shot and stuff. Oh, and you're racist, too.
Please.
When law enforcement is called to the scene, it is the responsibility of the people who meet them there to communicate clearly what is happening without defiance and without causing the police officer to feel that using force to subdue might be necessary. Yes. Emphatically, simply, yes.
Whether or not that happened in the middle of October in Champaign? I have no clue. If you'll notice, I haven't offered up a single opinion about this particular shooting. The facts aren't all in, and unless there was a hidden camera, we may never know what really happened. We can only rely on human beings in all of their imperfection to give us the best picture possible, and attempt to do our best to make sure they are on the level. Frankly, I deal with the public, and don't have a lot of confidence in them in general. They are irrational, emotional, prone to overreact when little things happen, and in general all too human.
Just like you and me.
There is no "solution" to this problem. There are only gradual steps that we can take towards making it less severe. Teaching our cops not to gun down kids who aren't a threat (not saying that happened in this case, not saying it didn't, just saying in general) is already a part of police academy. Learning to assess and all that stuff. But people make errors in judgment all the time. Sometimes it's the cops, sometimes it's the kids. Sometimes it's both. It's not asking too much to say that we should focus on ways to prevent those errors from occuring, and that the home and the locker room are equally important places to start.
Kem
I don't think we are that far off. Of course we should and do work with youth to help them navigate encounters with the police. In fact, the two people you are discussing the issue with have in all likelihood had more successful conversations with youth on the topic than all of the other posters combined.
We probably have also have entered more potentially violent situations with youth than the vast majority of officers on the Champaign police force. I have yet to injure a child.
The idea that we need to investigate more thoroughly before even suggesting that the police training is deficient in dealing with poor and minority youth is ridiculous. The CPD will harass a minority youth for picking up the newspaper in front of their house. Why? Because they have been taught that it's good policing. But more than that, they just shot a tiny minority youth because, well, we have no idea why...
Frankly, I deal with the public, and don't have a lot of confidence in them in general. They are irrational, emotional, prone to overreact when little things happen, and in general all too human.
Yes, which is why those with power to use deadly force and occupying a position of public trust need to be properly trained to handle that responsibility. Police MUST be SUPERhuman while on their shifts. I know I am.
Teaching our cops not to gun down kids who aren't a threat (not saying that happened in this case, not saying it didn't, just saying in general) is already a part of police academy. Learning to assess and all that stuff. But people make errors in judgment all the time. Sometimes it's the cops, sometimes it's the kids. Sometimes it's both. It's not asking too much to say that we should focus on ways to prevent those errors from occuring, and that the home and the locker room are equally important places to start.
And based on the evidence at hand, and personal experience, that training is deficient, and the tone is set by those at the top--the Mayor and Chief who have a severe disdain for critical thinking members of the public, especially of the wrong "community".
Can't you see how it's not equivalent when a member of the public makes an "error" and a trained, paid, public professional makes an error? If I die in surgery, because I didn't remind the surgeon of a possible drug conflilct that was listed on my chart, do we just write it off as "well, both sides overlooked that"? Hell, no.
Anon 7:06 is the typical know-it-all liberal who has more experience doing everything than anyone else does. He/she is superhuman, you know. He/she also is a master of navigating violent situations.
09:15 PM, Anonymous is a stereotypical anonymous poster, who makes unverifiable generalities and claims
illinipunditposter
If only Anonymous 7:06 held teachers to the same standards as police officers. Sure, it's dramatic when a kid is shot and killed, but whole classrooms of children are having their futures stripped from them by teachers who are filling their minds with Marxist nonsense instead of phonics and math.
Did Anonymous 9:55pm really just imply that it's merely "dramatic" when kids are violently killed, but it's worse when they are taught?
I've never been in a classroom where "Marxist nonsense" is being taught, but I'm quite sure it's much better than being shot to death.
But I do hold teachers to the same standards as police officers--if a kid comes up dead in a teacher's care, I want to know what caused them to fail in their responsibility...
On November 1st, 2009 at 08:40 AM, justkem said:
Whether or not you like it, there is also a strong positive corrolation between low SES and spousal abuse. There is also a strong positive corrolation between low SES and child abuse. Kids who come from homes where these things happen are more likely to respond to threatening situations with violence. That's not rocket science, it's basic psychology.
Sorry, Kem, going to disagree with you on this one. Low SES just means that you're more likely to live in an apartment where the neighbors can hear you beating your kid (much harder to hear these events when you live in an area where the houses by real estate covenant are at least 30-40 feet apart). It means you can't afford to hire a lawyer; if you are lucky enough to be in a state with public defenders for civil cases that's what a low SES parent accused of those actions will get, and a state that does not offer PDs in these situations means you'll be engaged in a pro bono defense against a well-funded state's attorney. Good luck with that--you'll probably lose.
The whole point of my original post was that race sometimes serves as a proxy for low SES. Low SES is linked to the criminal justice system precisely because it is linked with violent behaviors,
Sorry, going to have to disagree with you again. While violent behavior may bring you to the attention of the criminal justice system, who your lawyer is, and what kind of defense they put forward to explain your actions, is a better indicator of the disposition of your case. Perhaps you saw the Letters to the Editor in the News-Gazette where certain community members protested that their children would not be accused of burglary while climbing into a window because the children were a.) white and b.) residing in Clark Park, one of the upper-income neighborhoods in Champaign. I would argue that race is not a good indicator of one's tendency to be violent, and neither is one's social-economic class, but both race and SES will factor into how police and court officers treat you.
So the statistics on homocides, which can be used to demonstrate that lethal threats are more likely to occur in minority neighborhoods, are skewed a bit.
Nope, sorry, all these statistics demonstrate is that "like attracts like". Neighbors tend to look alike and be of the same economic class; that's why I live in a neighborhood of upper-middle-class, mostly white folks. There have been plenty of things that have happened in my neighborhood that never even made the newspaper; if they had happened at 4th and Bradley they would have been on the front page of the next day's News-Gazette and covered by all the radio and TV stations in this town. Crime is apparently much more interesting when it happens to poor and minority families, and you and I are both aware of the large degree of latitude in charging crimes that the law affords to the state's attorney. I will agree that you are much more likely to be injured or harmed by someone you know--perhaps you are aware of the statistic that 80% of all criminal actions committed against African-Americans are by other African-Americans.
and blacks are disproportionately impacted by poverty.
On this you and I are in hearty agreement.
One, I'm gonna try my best to correct some of the statements you made in your attempt to rebut Kem. After reading your rebuttal, it's abundantly obvious that you have NO real world experience with the criminal justice system (or poverty, for that matter). I'm not trying to be snarky, but your thought processes are leading you to conclusions that are 180 degrees from reality.
Sorry, Kem, going to disagree with you on this one. Low SES just means that you're more likely to live in an apartment where the neighbors can hear you beating your kid (much harder to hear these events when you live in an area where the houses by real estate covenant are at least 30-40 feet apart). It means you can't afford to hire a lawyer; if you are lucky enough to be in a state with public defenders for civil cases that's what a low SES parent accused of those actions will get, and a state that does not offer PDs in these situations means you'll be engaged in a pro bono defense against a well-funded state's attorney. Good luck with that--you'll probably lose.
First of all, your assumption that just because people hear someone abusing their own child means that they are going to call the police is faulty. Most people do not call the police on their neighbors for such things. It's similar to when someone gets shot on the street corner in broad daylight with 20 people standing around, but no one happened to see anything. I also think that you have this idea in your head that child abuse means your dad loudly beating you with a frying pan. Child abuse is much more subtle and nuanced most of the time and despite where you live, it's hidden away from your neighbors. As for your analysis of the criminal justice system, beating your child IS a crime and you will be arrested for it. You can have a public defender represent you if you are found to be indigent. I think you are confusing this with the juvenile court abuse/neglect system. This is where assistant States' Attorneys, DCFS, CASA advocates, and others get involved to decide what is in the best interests of the child. This is a seperate process from any criminal charges that might be filed against a person for 'beating their child.'
Sorry, going to have to disagree with you again. While violent behavior may bring you to the attention of the criminal justice system, who your lawyer is, and what kind of defense they put forward to explain your actions, is a better indicator of the disposition of your case. Perhaps you saw the Letters to the Editor in the News-Gazette where certain community members protested that their children would not be accused of burglary while climbing into a window because the children were a.) white and b.) residing in Clark Park, one of the upper-income neighborhoods in Champaign. I would argue that race is not a good indicator of one's tendency to be violent, and neither is one's social-economic class, but both race and SES will factor into how police and court officers treat you.
First of all, I'm not sure Kem ever tried to make any argument about someone's class status changing the outcome of their case. If she did, she's a big girl and I'll let her respond to that. What I find most troubling (amusing, head-scratching ???) is the last sentence of the above paragraph. One could make a solid argument that just because someone is poor and black doesn't mean they are violent. But you absolutely cannot refute the fact that statistics show blacks commit far more violent crimes per capita than other races (unless you believe the FBI is in on the giant criminal justice conspiracy to keep the black man down). If you don't believe me, look it up yourself. Here's just a couple of the first sites I hit by googling '2008 FBI crime statistics by race'
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0008.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
I've always made the statement that not all poor people are criminals, but most criminals are poor.
Nope, sorry, all these statistics demonstrate is that "like attracts like". Neighbors tend to look alike and be of the same economic class; that's why I live in a neighborhood of upper-middle-class, mostly white folks. There have been plenty of things that have happened in my neighborhood that never even made the newspaper; if they had happened at 4th and Bradley they would have been on the front page of the next day's News-Gazette and covered by all the radio and TV stations in this town. Crime is apparently much more interesting when it happens to poor and minority families, and you and I are both aware of the large degree of latitude in charging crimes that the law affords to the state's attorney. I will agree that you are much more likely to be injured or harmed by someone you know--perhaps you are aware of the statistic that 80% of all criminal actions committed against African-Americans are by other African-Americans.
I'm gonna have to call you on this one. Your assessment that crime is much more interesting when it happens to poor and minority families is absurd. It's been proven time and time again that sensationalism is what drives the media. I would wager to guess that you didn't even hear about the shooting in SE Urbana that happened on Friday. Why, because it wasn't that big of deal to hear about someone getting shot in a drug-related crime. I'll bet that you don't know the name of the shooter, even though it was stated in the little amount of press that it did get. But tell me that you don't know who Ellen Feinberg is.
You are correct that black on black crime is statistically significant.
On November 2nd, 2009 at 09:15 AM, Anonymous (not verified) said:
After reading your rebuttal, it's abundantly obvious that you have NO real world experience with the criminal justice system (or poverty, for that matter). I'm afraid you don't know me as well as you think you do, Anon 9:15. My first job at age 16 was working in a law office; I have lived long enough to see some friends get arrested on various charges. The ones who could pony up $10-20k for an attorney got MUCH MORE lenient sentences (i.e., they didn't spend any time in jail before or after their trial, and they certainly weren't sentenced at the lengthy end of the sentencing guidelines for their crimes) than the ones who had to rely on a public defender to represent them (these folks usually did some "county time", possibly even state time, and certainly had more conditions attached to their probation/parole). There's a reason so many at the courthouse will tell you "Rich folks get justice and poor folks get the law."
As for poverty, my parents farmed, and there were many years when their income was low enough to qualify us kids for free lunches and state healthcare. It wasn't fun by any measure, but I do like to think it has given me a set of skills that have allowed me to stretch my income further than it should go on paper.
First of all, your assumption that just because people hear someone abusing their own child means that they are going to call the police is faulty. Oh, I'll agree with you that crime can be significantly underreported, no matter what neighborhood you live in.
I also think that you have this idea in your head that child abuse means your dad loudly beating you with a frying pan. Or perhaps a belt, or an electrical extension cord. Or perhaps we can discuss the parents who prostitute their children to pay off the parent's drug debts. And what about the parents who tell their child they wish that child have never been born?
Child abuse is much more subtle and nuanced most of the time Probably true...
and despite where you live, it's hidden away from your neighbors. Not always true, but many hesitate to get involved out of concern for making matters worse for the child. Don't forget, foster parents are often found guilt of child abuse, too.
As for your analysis of the criminal justice system, beating your child IS a crime and you will be arrested for it. With Anabaptists in my family tree, I tend to be pretty firmly on the side of non-violence. Where did you get the impression I am in favor of someone harming a child?
You can have a public defender represent you if you are found to be indigent. True, but as my friend the former public defender (now a civil attorney) says: nothing guarantees that your public defender will be competent or mount an exhaustive defense on your behalf. You can cite Gideon v. Wainwright, but you also need to read the string of Supreme Court decisions beyond that. I believe it was Texas in the late 1990s that gave us a case where the Supremes ruled on a case where a public defender slept through his client's trial.
I think you are confusing this with the juvenile court abuse/neglect system. This is where assistant States' Attorneys, DCFS, CASA advocates, and others get involved to decide what is in the best interests of the child. This is a seperate process from any criminal charges that might be filed against a person for 'beating their child.' I have volunteered at Best Interest of Children (BIOC), and I will agree that these are two separate processes. Which one (criminal vs. civil) was Kem referring to in her original statement?
you absolutely cannot refute the fact that statistics show blacks commit far more violent crimes per capita than other races (unless you believe the FBI is in on the giant criminal justice conspiracy to keep the black man down). If you don't believe me, look it up yourself. Here's just a couple of the first sites I hit by googling '2008 FBI crime statistics by race'
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0008.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
me speaking: Have you had an opportunity to review some of the sorry history regarding law enforcement in this nation. or the statistics about wrongful convictions? Jeannine Nicarico, for instance, was not killed by two punk Hispanic street gang members from Aurora, IL. She was killed by a white man who also assaulted and raped several other women, and killed at least two other of his victims. Had Jim Ryan and Joe Birkett not wasted so much time and so many tax dollars on Cruz and Hernandez, these women might well be alive.
Do you dispute that any State's Attorney in Illinois has great latitude in the charges they can bring against defendents, or the punishment that can be requested if said defendent is convicted?
I've always made the statement that not all poor people are criminals, but most criminals are poor. Agreed, but one should never forget folks like Kenneth Lay, Andrew and Leah Fastow (who were allowed to tag-team their time in prison so that one parent would always be home with their young children), or Robert Chambers (the "Preppy Murderer" from New York).
It's been proven time and time again that sensationalism is what drives the media. In other words, "If it bleeds, it leads". When I know of a media outlet (print or broadcast) that follows this philosophy, I work very hard to avoid giving them any business.
(slightly out of order) Your assessment that crime is much more interesting when it happens to poor and minority families is absurd. Please remember that I used the qualifier "apparently" when I made that statement. Crime is horrifying. But I can tell of one summer night, almost ten years ago, when a car stolen from Indiana was spotted on campus. Sheriff's department, Champaign and U of I police gave chase, leading to six cop cars (with sirens blaring and lights flashing) ending this chase at roughly midnight on a weekend night in front of the duplex I was living in at the time (less than .25 mile from where I live now). The dude who was driving the stolen car cartwheeled out of it across my lawn and ran off down my block; police spent the rest night looking for him but never found him. This incident was never reported in the News-Gazette; no television trucks came out to do "live broadcasts!" from my neighborhood. If I had been at 4th and Bradley, this would have been the top story on the front page and I'm sure every T.V. reporter from sixty miles would have been knocking on my door to ask what I had seen and thought of this incident.
I would wager to guess that you didn't even hear about the shooting in SE Urbana that happened on Friday. On the contrary: it has been one of the stories on Channel 3 ever night since it happened.
Why, because it wasn't that big of deal to hear about someone getting shot in a drug-related crime. I'm never pleased to hear that anyone has been shot and injured or killed, even if the shooting is allegedly part of a drug deal that went bad.
I'll bet that you don't know the name of the shooter, even though it was stated in the little amount of press that it did get. That person's name has been stated, but because I didn't know that young man I do not remember his name exactly. Without resorting to N-G online or other help, I can tell you it is similar to Travion or Travionte. Is that close enough, or should I do a search for this?
But tell me that you don't know who Ellen Feinberg is. I'll one-up you: she and I had several friends in common. It was horrible for all who knew the family, even tangentially.
"If I had been at 4th and Bradley, this would have been the top story on the front page and I'm sure every T.V. reporter from sixty miles would have been knocking on my door to ask what I had seen and thought of this incident."
This is 100% your bias. You have taken your one experience and made a global statement about what WILL happen. Listen to the scanner for a week and compare what you hear with what gets into the paper. Or better yet go a police station and see all of the reports they get, since a lot of signifigant stuff will not generate a lot of radio traffic. Just because you saw this does not mean it applies out beyond your one time experience. The cops chase people all the time all over the place and it typically does not generate a story anywhere.
closeted (or, hopefully, not still):
Given:
a) Child abuse is underreported, and relies on people in the child's community in order to be reported.
b) Low SES means that some people are not as likely to be able to afford lawyers, which results in poor people sometimes being convicted unjustly and rich people sometimes being able to effectively buy their way out of punishment when they are guilty.
This is all true. But the conclusion, based on these premises, that the statistics on the link between low SES and increased spousal/child abuse are too flawed to be significant is a classic example of an informal fallacy. You're ignoring the counterevidence.
Specifically, you're ignoring that low SES isn't always arbitrary. People suffering from mental illness, people who abuse drugs and alcohol, and people who have criminal records are all (understandably) much less likely to be high functioning individuals in the professional world. In short, there's a higher percentage of people who struggle to take care of themselves on a day-to-day basis (and are thus drawn into codependent relationships in which each partner blames the other for their collective shortcomings, trapping each other in a cycle of guilt and shame) in the lower income brackets. True in my trailer park, and true in the projects as well. Abuse (both emotional and physical) is more likely in these environments. And, while problems with money exist at every level in society, it's been my experience that people who have very little discretionary income to begin with are in a heightened state of panic when it comes to questioning each other's financial habits. It causes breakdowns, not arguments. The kids who are witness to this grow up too fast, and see too much.
Don't believe me? Talk to the kids who were growing up in the Wells when Eric Morse was dropped from a fourteenth story window over a piece of candy. One of them is running for senate, striving to change the "social climate of poverty".
His phrase, not mine, and a darned good one.
Kem
Here are some other statistics to add to the pot.
In 2007:
And yet:
So it is nice to pretend that economics is a more important factor than race, but I don't think the data supports that fact. If I am a young, poor black male I am *SIX* times more likely to end up in prison than a young, poor white male.
I guess we could pretend that the reason for that discrepency is that black people commit more crimes, but as a former young, poor white male myself I can testify that there is a hell of a lot of crime taking place in the white community as well. So what is the difference here?
Of course, if you were a woman of any color, you'd be like 10 times less likely to be in prison. Since we are refusing to look at behavior as a factor, we must conclude that the criminal justice system is very sexist against men.
We can pretend that women don't commit crimes, but let me tell you... those women are CRIMINAL!
So it is nice to pretend that economics is a more important factor than race, but I don't think the data supports that fact.
I'm not necessarily convinced that economics are more important than race when it comes to the likelihood of arrest--it's pretty difficult to isolate these in studies, for all sorts of reasons. What I'm saying is that sometimes the two fields overlap, and the "social climate of poverty" contributes heavily to whether or not a cop anticipates a threat of violence when entering an area. And really, when you're face to face with someone who has the power to end your life (physically or metaphorically), it's helpful to consider whether or not that person anticipates a threat of violence and act appropriately to do everything possible to avoid escalation.
Also, a note on the statistics above... I spent pretty much all of my twenties technically in poverty. Neither of my parents graduated college, and the same was true for my husband and his parents. Still, both of us grew up middle class and had safety nets to fall back on that didn't start and end with a government check and Section 8 housing. SES is a relative thing... the grad student (white or black) in (his or her) early twenties working part-time and raising a family on rice and beans is technically "poor", but much less likely to live the rest of his (or her, are we tired of this yet?) life that way. Likewise, that person is a lot less likely to wind up in jail because he joined a gang when he was ten, and the only way out is in a casket.
If I am a young, poor black male I am *SIX* times more likely to end up in prison than a young, poor white male.
I'm going to assume this was just a careless mistake, but I feel compelled to point out that those numbers were based on the total American population, rich and poor, young and old, alike. Based on your numbers, if you're a black male, you're roughly three times as likely to be poor, and six times more likely to be jailed than you are if you're a white male. Those are the only conclusions you can draw, and you can't necessarily say that there is a causal relationship between the two. What you can do is dig deeper and see what you come up with.
So what is the difference here?
Rural white poverty (particularly when it's the "broke college student" variety that I suspect you're most familiar with) is fundamentally different from the densely packed war zones of generational poverty in places like Cabrini-Green and the Darrow Homes, which weren't exactly racially integrated communities. The highrises may have been torn down, but the problems that led to their demolition didn't magically disappear.
I don't know how to put this any more simply than to say that arrests and incarceration are more likely in areas that base their primary economy around drugs and gang warfare, and these communities don't really overlap with the low SES rural white communities along the Illinois river. Likewise, I suspect that your experience with a "hell of a lot of crime" that takes place in the white community is really an example of comparing apples to oranges here.
The irony is that you need to have these things pointed out to you, particularly in light of all of your accusations of how generally naive and insensitive people from Mahomet are when it comes to discussions of race and what it means to be black in America. You may want to take note of the fact that you've just been schooled by a middle class white kid from the suburbs.
Kem
"But I can tell of one summer night, almost ten years ago, when a car stolen from Indiana was spotted on campus... This incident was never reported in the News-Gazette; no television trucks came out to do "live broadcasts!" from my neighborhood. If I had been at 4th and Bradley, this would have been the top story on the front page and I'm sure every T.V. reporter from sixty miles would have been knocking on my door to ask what I had seen and thought of this incident."
Don't you think it's at least a little bit funny that you had to go back ten years to find your example of what the media does all the time? Shouldn't that tell you something?
So it is nice to pretend that economics is a more important factor than race, but I don't think the data supports that fact. If I am a young, poor black male I am *SIX* times more likely to end up in prison than a young, poor white male. UNLESS you recognize that data and change your direction. You make it sound as if we are all victoms of data or circumstance. What happened to personal responsibility, creating your own destiny? Just spouting data falls far short of explaining the issue. Why the data is what it is, is the telling tale and it is inevitably attributed to a combination of factors. I don't buy this victom plea for anyone, regardless of race. That is one the contributing factors to the data you slap down as if it were a straight flush.
I guess we could pretend that the reason for that discrepency is that black people commit more crimes, but as a former young, poor white male myself I can testify that there is a hell of a lot of crime taking place in the white community as well. Who needs to pretend??? The data is there isn't it? On one hand you say look at the facts, on the other hand you say the facts are a cop-out. Pick and angle, any angle, and stick with it please.
So what is the difference here? Umm, your beloved data? Logic and objectivity? The difference is you post historical data to support your view and you posted a personal life snapshot to dispute a logical conclusion drawn from the data.
As an aside... I just realized it's not all that difficult to pull up statistics that adjust for SES and race simultaneously. If the number of arrests and incarcerations of middle class African Americans remains high at roughly the same proportions relative to total population, than it's safe to assume that poverty isn't really a factor... it's all about racism.
Not surprisingly, they don't.
Kem
To Toldja So @ 12:10 P--a quote from this posting, "You make it sound as if we are all victoms of data or circumstance. What happened to personal responsibility, creating your own destiny?" Wow--do you avoid reading news stories/case studies about people who "have taken personal responsibility/done all of the right things" only to have the world collapse around them for many reasons, such as illness, loss of job, not being able to find a replacement job, illnesses within family and extended family, having to care for aging parents, etc. Your statement is so dogmatic and out of reality of what is happening in this country let alone the world.
Pattsi Petrie
You may want to take note of the fact that you've just been schooled by a middle class white kid from the suburbs.
Schooled? I can't even make out what you are saying any more. You started out claiming that the local black community has a "Cop Killa" ethos. When called on that, you tried to make fun of me for my stupidity about how poor white communities also have a "Cop Killer" ethos. Now you're saying poor black communities are based on selling drugs and gang warfare, but poor white communities along the Illinois River aren't?
I honestly have no idea what to even rebut from your comments anymore. They make little to no sense and seem entirely based on your strange beliefs about the nature of ethnic communities. Honestly, it's kind of weird.
You started out trying to say that the culture of poverty and crime enables the police to be more willing to shoot and kill. And that people just need to abide by your dad's advice that they should defer to the police in all instances.
Since this is a thread about the killing of a local black youth at the hands of the police, my assumption is that you want us all to apply your point to the case at hand. And of course a lot of people will agree with you. But for those of us who spend time in the local black community, and who know a lot of local black youth, we don't see this "Cop Killa" ethos at work. We see young people who really want to succeed in life and to make something of themselves. And these kids can all tell stories of being stopped by the police because they were walking home from a sports practice at 8:00 p.m. on a Thursday night. Some can tell stories of police throwing them against a car for no reason. Others have watched the police beat their friends. And now others know local youths who have been shot to death by the police.
And do some have an attitude toward the cops at this point? Sure.
Maybe they should listen to your dad, who was probably never hassled by a cop for no good reason in his entire life. Or maybe they should just get over the fact that the police hassle them, and try to be more like the white kids whose parents would file complaints against the police if they ever laid a hand on their children.
I don't know what you want anymore and, frankly, I am less than interested at this point. Just please stop making vast, uninformed generalities about the nature of the local black community. You obviously don't know what you are talking about, which was my original and really ONLY point. Just go about your business and stop trying to tell us what is wrong with the local black community. Please.
pattsi:
While I agree in general that conditions which lead to despair are a factor in violent crime, I don't think it's reasonable to compare violent crime with these kinds of misfortunes. The decision to resort to violence is always a choice.
Toldja So:
That being said, the problem is that many of the "statistics" are making these decisions when they are pre-pubescent, with no real psychological capacity to understand the results of their actions. Their dads are in jail, their moms are doing the best they can (or not) to keep their kids on the straight and narrow, and their friends and family are dying all around them. So, yes, there is personal responsibility when it comes to a decision to live by the sword. But it would be callous in the extreme to pretend that they have not already lived their young lives feeling that sword constantly bite at the back of their necks, praying for protection from it. Or, failing that, wanting the reassurance that their seemingly inevitable death will be met with retribution.
It's a different America. Either you're swimming or you're sinking. In some cases, kids aren't swimming because they simply don't have the resilience or the plasticity to deal with what they have been through. They grow up soldiers, having fought their entire lives on a field that lends itself all too easily to scary statistics. Pointing at the ones who make it out and do well for themselves and assuming that everyone should be able to do the same represents a collassal failure of basic human empathy.
At the risk of invoking Godwin here, it's a bit like blaming a Holocaust survivor for being depressed.
Kem
And Pattsi you are sighting an exception to the rule. If we all went through life with the futile attitude of a rogue wave wiping us out, why would we even bother trying? Dare I say...character? When do we stop the gravy train that keeps these "victoms" enslaved? I'm not so dogmatic not to recognize a true swimmer hit by the tsunami and for those individuals I have the utmost compassion. I'd be the first to jump in an attempt to save them, that's not the case with the viewpoint being peddled above.
A for Anon is attempting to use data to essentially say that if you are born into a less than ideal SES, that's your ticket now and for evermore to claim victom status, ie "I'm not responsible for this mess I'm in so you can't hold me accountable and you should pay my consequence for me." This attitude bugs the snot out of me and is a major contributor to the derelict direction of our society. These "victoms" are slaves to a system that wants them to remain slaves so they, the system (government) can remain all powerful over them. That's why you don't see real solutions to SES issues, that's why we have all these entitlements, that's why consequences for personal choices are now called unfair or racist, and that my friend is why today we have "Obama Money!". I am a very compassionate person. But I also practice discernment for those who would take advantage of charity and good will. This attitude A is selling us is at the root of the problem across all races, all classes, sexes, ages. Until we start holding all accountable to a basic and common level of character, respect, decency, and humility we're just feeding the beast.
justkem, I recognize the rationale, but what is being done to reverse/correct it? Consequences have and always will be the answer. I've raised seven children. Some with learning disabilities, one with a behavioral disorder, but kids just the same. There is a world of difference between compensating for abilities or lack thereof and making excuses. You can talk, bribe, plead, and beg until you're blue in the face and those kids will learn how to work you like a puppet. But they will not learn to make good decisions for themselves until there are choices and consequences. If you truly care about children, you allow them to be disciplined with consequences of their choices. Adults are no different.
You speak of these adolescents as if they grew up on Mars. Their home environment may be the less than ideal SES but these kids have much exposure to alternate choices for themselves through school, community programs, even television and technology. Don't sell them short on their ability to percieve the world around them, they know there are options. I do know of which I speak.
You started out claiming that the local black community has a "Cop Killa" ethos.
No, I entered this discussion when national statistics were thrown out there by saying that gang warfare in (generally urban) poverty stricken environments leads to a general feeling of fear and nervousness on the part of law enforcement when it comes to entering those communities. That fear sometimes (not always, but more often than it should, I'm sure) leads to hatred, and at the risk of going all Star Wars here, what it boils down to is that there is very little trust or respect between police and some of the people they are charged with protecting. That leads to the Cop Killer mentality (not inevitably, again, but more often than it should, I'm sure) among the people who recognize that distrust and hatred, it's a vicious circle, and pretending that it doesn't exist is just plain ignorant.
What I emphatically didn't say is that this particular local black community has a "Cop Killa" ethos. You're the one who put that into what I wrote. What I did say is that the awareness of that specific dynamic (which again, is largely concentrated in the urban ghetto, for residents both white and black) spreads to every corner of American society and has an (albeit diluted) impact on how law enforcement interacts with poorer communities across the country.
When called on that, you tried to make fun of me for my stupidity about how poor white communities also have a "Cop Killer" ethos.
No, I said it's not just a racial thing. White kids who grow up in areas largely abandoned to drug lords see the two separate Americas just as clearly as anyone else. They join gangs, too. Or at least the kids in my school did. I don't know about yours.
Now you're saying poor black communities are based on selling drugs and gang warfare, but poor white communities along the Illinois River aren't?
No, I'm saying that a reason (one of many, and institutional racism is certainly one of them) why poor white people nationwide don't wind up in prison as often as poor black people is because they are less likely to live in areas largely abandoned to drug lords. It doesn't negate the fact that race serves as a proxy for low SES in many instances, it simply demonstrates a reason (one of many, and the availability of effective social support structures that counteract the negative impacts of poverty is certainly one of them) why there isn't something more closely approximating a 1:1 corrolation between the percentages of the populations incarcerated overall.
You started out trying to say that the culture of poverty and crime enables the police to be more willing to shoot and kill.
Sort of. What I actually said is that there is more fear and a greater expectation of violent outcomes when entering some communities than there is when entering others. True for police and civillians alike, actually. Just because I keep my doors locked when I'm driving home from the Museum of Science and Industry doesn't mean I'm more likely to shoot and kill. It does mean that I'm more aware that I might put myself in a position where I need to defend my daughter and myself if I stop at the bathroom on one particular block. Given the choice, I'll stay in the car. If I have to exit the car, I'll be more alert about my surroundings than I would normally be.
And that people just need to abide by your dad's advice that they should defer to the police in all instances.
Depends a lot on what you mean by defer. If, by defer, you mean that when the police arrive, it's a good idea to be polite and cooperative, then yes. If, by defer, you mean that you should do whatever the police tell you to do regardless of whether or not your rights are being violated in the process, then no. But that no can come in a variety of delivery methods. Putting an officer of the law on the defensive, by whatever means, is risk taking behavior. It's a good idea to avoid that.
Since this is a thread about the killing of a local black youth at the hands of the police, my assumption is that you want us all to apply your point to the case at hand.
And since we're past the 100th post, I was replying to a post that talked about national statistics, and I have explicitly stated that I don't want to apply my point to the case at hand because *and here's the really important point, in case you miss it again* we don't know what happened in this specific case, it's a good idea to avoid that, too.
...we don't see this "Cop Killa" ethos at work. We see young people who really want to succeed in life and to make something of themselves.
What I don't get here is that you seem to think that the two are mutually exclusive states of mind. Just because a person doesn't trust the police, feels that the world of the rich is out to exploit the world of the poor by whatever oppressive means necessary, and would rather gun someone else down unjustly than be unjustly gunned down himself doesn't necessarily mean that they don't want to succeed in life and make something of themselves. It's a question of how, really.
In any case, the type of mentality I'm talking about is not at work in the streets of Champaign. Talk to Xian about it. Talk to my buddy who teaches in the elementary schools on the southside. They see it. We see the ripples, they see the splash.
And these kids can all tell stories of being stopped by the police because they were walking home from a sports practice at 8:00 p.m. on a Thursday night. Some can tell stories of police throwing them against a car for no reason. Others have watched the police beat their friends.
And, hopefully, they have some way of reporting this and the officers involved are disciplined. I recognize that's not always the case, but it's not really along the same level as the types of tensions that exist between inner city cops and kids in the ghetto.
And now others know local youths who have been shot to death by the police.
Which, hopefully, was the result of some immediate threat that warranted that decision. If not, there will hopefully be repercussions. I don't know the whole story, and I may never know it. I try to keep my peace when it comes to accusing other people of wrongdoing when I don't know the whole story.
And do some have an attitude toward the cops at this point? Sure.
Understandably so.
Maybe they should listen to your dad, who was probably never hassled by a cop for no good reason in his entire life.
You're missing the point. My dad gave me that advice precisely because he knew what the culture inside the locker room after work was like, and he knew that people were beaten and hassled just for giving "attitude". In confrontations with the law, not providing a reason for confrontation is one of the best ways to avoid unfair treatment. That was his whole point.
Or maybe they should just get over the fact that the police hassle them, and try to be more like the white kids whose parents would file complaints against the police if they ever laid a hand on their children.
That's about right, too. Fighting back any other way is asking for criminal charges to be filed. Unless there's a video camera present (and even if there's a video camera present, as Rodney King showed us), the system is balanced in favor of the long arm of the law.
Just go about your business and stop trying to tell us what is wrong with the local black community.
The lovely thing about a blog like this is that I really don't have to shut up just because one person doesn't bother to take the time to read what he's responding to and actually understand what's being said, and takes offense at things that I'm not saying. It's nice, having that kind of freedom. I think I'll continue to exercise it as I see fit.
Kem
Yes, no, sort of, kind of, maybe ...
Ugh. I'm done. Have fun explaining to the next guy how you aren't saying what it seems really clearly that you are saying except that you are saying it when you want to say it but not saying it when somebody else says you are saying it just when you originally say it but not two days later when you forgot that you said it.
It's kinda the other Godwin rule - if you have to brag about how you've schooled someone, then you haven't schooled him.
Fair enough. As a general rule, discussions that begin with "you're racist, and you live in a racist town, too, and you don't know anything about anything" don't typically result in a good dialogue. It was probably wrong of me to engage it in the first place, and certainly childish to throw that parting shot in, but I feel like I've given D. Boone the benefit of the doubt (and taken the time to patiently and politely explain my position carefully, even though I know it's pretty much the definition of insanity to expect different results) often enough over the past few years that I can justifiably indulge in a little Net Warrior snarkiness from time to time. I do feel a little guilty, but I probably won't lose any sleep over it.
Kem
I agree with Kem on this one. Boon's snarkiness is unmatched. He can't compete intellectually, so he starts throwing around red herrings. I feel sorry for anyone who actually has to live with the guy.
A for Anonymous:
Really, I expected nothing less (and nothing more) from you. I keep hoping that one of these days you'll actually respond to what's being said instead of continuing to post variations of your initial reaction while hurling insults, random statistics that don't actually say what you think they say, and deliberate misrepresentations of backquoted text in the process.
If I weren't such a tree-hugging hippy, I'd allow my growing cynicism to guide my response and simply ignore it when you do that. One of these days, I may actually grow old enough that I just don't care anymore.
Kem
Toldja So:
I recognize the rationale, but what is being done to reverse/correct it?
Good question. Mostly, it's being done in the form of community organizations, churches, mentors, and other dedicated adults who receognize the gaping chasm devouring our youth and step in to build bridges. Resources are always the problem.
You speak of these adolescents as if they grew up on Mars.
That's probably because I re-read "Our America" about a month or so ago, after listening to a podcast of This American Life that featured Geoffory Canada from the Harlem Children's Zone. So, yeah, I've been kind of emotionally wrapped up in this question, and listening to kids describe their experiences does tell you a fair amount. Mars? No. But the idea that there is a level playing field, or that kids should just be able to rise above and it's their fault if they don't, is (to me at least) not very grounded in reality.
Their home environment may be the less than ideal SES
It's not just the poverty, it's everything that goes along with it. Some communities are worse than others.
but these kids have much exposure to alternate choices for themselves through school, community programs, even television and technology.
Sometimes it's not enough. The child who makes it into fourth grade barely able to read and unable to do basic mathematical operations is certainly aware that college isn't even close to an option. Some of these kids have the escape exits closed for them, without adaquate interventions because the resources for those interventions simply aren't there, before they even hit middle school.
Don't sell them short on their ability to percieve the world around them, they know there are options. I do know of which I speak.
Some of them perceive the world around them and see the chance to fill the glass. Others don't. The ones without hope... yeah, they're not gonna make it. And, honestly, the world they live in doesn't afford many reasons to be hopeful.
I don't know how to change it. I wish there were an easy answer.
Kem
I don't know how to change it. I wish there were an easy answer.
Please read my 2:17 post. Of course there are no easy answers, but a little common sense and logic to the situation could take it some distance. The progressive movement recognized the education system as a means of building their base of common beliefs decades ago. It would behoof our society to take a much closer look at the role public education plays in providing not only children with the odds stacked against them, but all children with life skills. The basic common standards of conduct we all would hope a civilized society to hold true such as character, respect of others and self, responsibility, integrity... I as much as anyone else find it regrettable to put these responsibilities on our public education community, but we all know it's simply not happening in many homes these days. We, as a society pay the price for it and sadly, so do 15 year old boys. When it comes right down to it, what is valued more? Not simply a productive, but thriving member of society, or a kid with the ability to parrot the Theory of Relativity? Give me an honest simple man over a scholarly scoundrel anyday.
Pardon the redundancy, but I feel accountability and consequences are the key. There are compensations, and then there are excuses. We are not serving these children or our society by providing excuses. By the time they are adolescents we have provided them with the skills to be master excuse makers for the whole of their lives, not overcomers.
"they will not learn to make good decisions for themselves until there are choices and consequences. If you truly care about children, you allow them to be disciplined with consequences of their choices."
Wow, I agree entirely with Toldja Soe. That's a first.
Of course the changes described ARE the progressive education movement. The problem is that the current neo-liberal standards for such policies leave us with a situation where teachers teaching life skills as a foundation for academic achievement are harassed and pushed out of the system. Look at all of the neo-liberal reform and its consequences. Do we need another 5000 Fenger Turnaround High Schools?
I think the reality is somewhere in the middle. Even the best, most successful of these types of education models suffer from a lack of funding. It takes a village, and in order for that village to be able to dedicate the time and resources to make it work, that village needs to be paid for their services.
As far as scoundrels reciting Relativity, I'd be happy with teenagers who could figure out a tip in their heads. Quantum physics? It's not on the test.
Kem
I have never posted on here before but after reading all the rhetoric associated with this story thought it was time. Come on folks wake up!!! This is not racial, this is not some giant conspiracy to keep anyone down and push the "man" forward. This is a case where somewhere along the line parenting failed this child, black, white, green, purple.......it makes no difference. The responsibility of any moral and good citizen is to not skip school, not to do a crime, not to break into houses, and when the police yell stop then stop. If this was a white kid, would the black citizens of this community be as outraged.......probably not.
If this was a white kid, would the black citizens of this community be as outraged.......probably not.
Not probably not, absolutely not, because there are those still trying to convince others this young man was shot because he was black.Or because the CPD as a whole is racist, or CPD doesn't properly train it's officers, or the procedures need changed, or the Chief of Police is a rotten apple, or the community doesn't care about "their" children, anything, absolutely anything except the raw and undeniable fact that this young disobeyed and "possibly" (we don't know all the facts yet), physically resisted a police officer.
Do policies and procedures need changed? Possibly, we'll need to review the investigation being conducted by the state police. Do relations between law enforcement and youth need mending and healing? Could never hurt. However, that would need to involve the cooperation of all factions, willing to come to humbly and in good faith come to the table admitting they contributed to the deterioration of that relationship. Are both sides willing to own this? That's not what I'm seeing or hearing.
If the police officer didn't follow procedure or it is determined the procedure is flawed, then the police are partially at fault. If the young man disobeyed or fought with police then he is partially at fault. If the young man's actions were based on a mindset that it was acceptable to disobey or assault an officer, then we all are at fault. From those who taught or failed to teach him acceptable behavior, to those who may have nurtured a sense of defiance, disrespect, resentment. All of this may apply and none of this may apply, perhaps he simply acted out of shear panic. We'll never know why that young man did what he did, he's gone. I think when it all comes to light we are going to find no one completely innocent and no one completely guilty of the actions, attitudes, and events that culminated in this accident. A consequence, however tragic, of choices.
If the young man's actions were based on a mindset that it was acceptable to disobey or assault an officer, then we all are at fault.
I don't feel at all at fault for this young mans attitude. My children were never taught to be disrespectful to adults and others. If his family didnt give him the same sense of responsibility, dont blame me, blame them.
I think I've made my point. Thank you for your assistance.
I don't feel at all at fault for this young mans attitude. My children were never taught to be disrespectful to adults and others. If his family didnt give him the same sense of responsibility, dont blame me, blame them.
We don't know what the young man's attitude may have been nor by what conduct he may have exhibited it. The independent investigation has not yet been completed and made public. All we have at this point is raw speculation as to what may have occurred without any basis in established fact.
Three Score and Ten Plus One
Keith Hays
Of course we saw at the council meeting last month a complete lack of respect by many in the audience for the elected leadership of the community and last Tuesday when a local activist was asked (as everyone else was and did) for his address. Instead he said that he was being "harrased" by lord only knows who.
Of course the Harvard Professor is the gold standard for not allowing the police to do their job.
All we have at this point is raw speculation as to what may have occurred without any basis in established fact.
Exactly. And it is more than a little interesting that people are already convinced that because Kiwane is black and he was shot by the police then he must have been raised wrong, and had no respect for the police.
Some of the people I know who have the least respect for the law and for the police are young, wealthy white kids. If one of them had been shot, I seriously doubt the same smears of character would be thrown around so blithely.
And that says a lot about what we are dealing with.
"And it is more than a little interesting that people are already convinced that because Kiwane is black and he was shot by the police then he must have been raised wrong, and had no respect for the police."
And it's just as interesting that there are people who think this killing was part of some larger racist conspiracy on the part of Champaign police to kill black children.
There are racist idiots everywhere.
I don't see anyone here saying that. I think there are people saying that the history of the area and the failed leadership of the CPD have led to a hostile situation that is likely to lead to the deaths of black children.
The troubling piece is that a very large section of the community believes that there's an extreme disparity in the way that multiple members of the CPD treat minority youth as opposed to other citizens and that another large section of the community is not in the least bit interested in doing anything besides wave that off.
We could do a survey and demonstrate that, and people would still say, "The evil minorities have brain washed their kids to disrespect and believe that the police don't treat them fairly!"
CPD has a major cultural problem. If you are young and the wrong color, it doesn't really matter what your attitude is toward the police. You could be extremely polite and apologetic (for doing nothing in the first place) and be disrespected by the police.
What does that teach the youth?
You see, if you, as a paid public official have to face some discomfort at the treatment you receive in a public meeting from a community whose trust your department has violated repeatedly through the history of the town, that's natural and part of the job. If you as a young person have to face abuse and violence while you are being completely and utterly respectful from those paid to protect and serve, that's a major violation and we need to purge that person from the department.
They are simply not equivalent situation.
Now, should we put more effort into showing respect for those who carry the badge? Of course, and I do. Everyday. But showing respect and assuming infallibility are in no way equivalent.
The mayor and chief of police with their "if you disagree with us our police have the right to not do their jobs and harass you" attitudes are squarely to blame for situations like what happened with this youth. If they don't have to answer for that in this world (and I believe that we should make sure they do) then they surely will beyond this world.
Where has any comment reflected upon the childs upbringing. Is it wrong to comment that he went to READY school after being removed from Unit 4 schools as has been reported? Is that racist to mention that? I am so confused by what I am suppose to read and then I am racist for reading it in the paper.
It's not PC to call something what it is. You should really read up on the unwritten rules.
I was fortunate/unfortunate enough to view a portion of the use of police force meeting on champaign's public excess channel just now. I come away from that with two thoughts.
1. the champaign police have virtually no training at all, and the police force is an autonomous body under the observation of the city manager who is supreme monarch.
2. that's what the people of champaign want, as reflected in the attitudes of the council.
Ernest Terga,
If you post another comment the likes of which I've removed above, in which you label the entire Champaign police force as racist idiots, you'll be banned. This is your second and final warning. Thanks.
"the champaign police have virtually no training at all"
Nothing like painting with a broad brush. Actually according to the presentation they are reporting over 20,000 hours of training per year. Ernest Terga, can you put that in context for us since you seem to know so much about their lack thereof.
Yes, but if you assume that a black kid must be confrontational because of poor upbringing, not because of a documented history of police racism in the city, that's totally cool. So much for letting the discourse decide what and what isn't appropriate.
Yes, but if you assume that a black kid must be confrontational because of poor upbringing, not because of a documented history of police racism in the city, that's totally cool.You keep insisting people have made this assumption, where are you seeing this? My post contained several "ifs" since we do not have the facts yet.
Prove him wrong, Toldja. Say "I don't think this was about Kiwane's poor upbringing."
"I don't know if this was about Kiwane's poor upbringing." I also don't know if it was lack of police training, but I do think we'll find several factors contributed and it will not be a result of all one person's or entity's fault. This is pretty much what I had previously said.
What is your problem???
"Yes, but if you assume that a black kid must be confrontational because of poor upbringing, not because of a documented history of police racism in the city, that's totally cool. So much for letting the discourse decide what and what isn't appropriate."
If someone is talking about one person and one incident without a blanket indictment of an entire profession or class or group, I'll generally let it go.
If someone wants to argue that Carrington's upbringing contributed to his reaction, so be it. I would disagree with it, because we just don't know what happened that afternoon, but that's different than someone saying that all black kids in Champaign would react a certain way because of their upbringing.
Again, discuss an incident or a policy or a particular example of something all you want. I may not agree with it, but I'll generally stay out of the way. But when someone starts arguing at all police are racist or all black kids are disrepectful, then I have a problem.
I didn't see the other comment, so I'll respect your judgment. Just remember the difference between saying, "The CPD have a history and routine of promoting racism in the city" and "All CPD officers are racist".
Sure. But the statement I removed contained this:
I see no value added to the discussion by that statement. Disagree?
Of course I respectfully disagree with you, IlliniPundit. You removed my statement because you disagree but repost it now? I didnt see any instructions on the limitations of discussion here, but it seems pretty arbitrary to me.
I am told that you live somewhere in Urbana, but you surely do venture into Champaign and know what the police there are like, don't you? Maybe you have never experienced an encounter with the Champaign police.
Don't you understand the inertia of organizational change? There is a culture of racism and a generally arrogant attitude about the cops in Champaign. Surely you recognize that. Any organization once established tends to attract similarly minded people who "fit" with the established cultural norms. The culture tends to repel those who dont fit.
Law Enforcement does not attract the top IQ segment of the society.
It was you who first called people "racist idiots" in this discussion, saying that they are everywhere.
There is some data that shows that Law Enforcement people simply "ain't too bright". I found this article (below).
"I didnt see any instructions on the limitations of discussion here, but it seems pretty arbitrary to me.
It is arbitrary. It's entirely up to me. If you don't like it, start your own blog. It's free and easy.
"I am told that you live somewhere in Urbana, but you surely do venture into Champaign and know what the police there are like, don't you? Maybe you have never experienced an encounter with the Champaign police."
I live in Champaign. I have had multiple encounters with Champaign police.
"Don't you understand the inertia of organizational change? There is a culture of racism and a generally arrogant attitude about the cops in Champaign. Surely you recognize that."
I don't recognize that, and it's an unprovable categorical attack by you on the character of a large group of people. Please refrain from doing so again. If you want to discuss further, please email me, but anything else posted by you in a similar vein on here will be unpublished, and you'll be banned.
I suppose that I will give up trying to convince you of anything if you really are so Obdurate.
I will take the discussion up with the one who misled me with advice to post here, and depart with some thing ---
On a tree by a river a little tom-tit
Sang "Willow, titwillow, titwillow!"
And I said to him, "Dicky-bird, why do you sit
Singing Willow, titwillow, titwillow'?"
"Is it weakness of intellect, birdie?" I cried,
"Or a rather tough worm in your little inside?"
With a shake of his poor little head, he replied,
"Oh, willow, titwillow, titwillow!"
Singing "Willow, titwillow, titwillow!"
And a cold perspiration bespangled his brow,
Oh, willow, titwillow, titwillow!
He sobbed and he sighed, and a gurgle he gave,
Then he plunged himself into the billowy wave,
And an echo arose from the suicide's grave —
"Oh, willow, titwillow, titwillow!"
Now I feel just as sure as I'm sure that my name
Isn't Willow, titwillow, titwillow,
That 'twas blighted affection that made him exclaim
"Oh, willow, titwillow, titwillow!"
And if you remain callous and obdurate, I
Shall perish as he did, and you will know why,
Though I probably shall not exclaim as I die,
"Oh, willow, titwillow, titwillow!"
IP: Anyone who invokes lyrics from Gilbert and Sullivan should not be discouraged. (Hopefully this does not give Todja So any silly ideas)
They can invoke all the G&S lyrics they want.
I just don't care for the "ZOMG! All Champaign cops are stupid racists!" bit. As I said, it adds nothing of value to any discussion we have on here.
Editorial in 16 Nov N-G encouraging release of the report ASAP http://www.news-gazette.com/news/opinions/editorials/2009/11/16/after_review_release_the_report_on
Pattsi Petrie