I will never pay for my kids to attend Fresh/Soph year at the UofI. How in the world do you justify charging $16,978 when you can go to Parkland and take 30 hours for $2,910 (at $97/credit hour). At parkland, you learn the same basic stuff, but the teachers there are more likely to speak English and not be some inexperienced grad student.
Since we're trying to be as liberal as California, where they just raised tuition rates 32%, I suspect we'll end up jacking fees at tuition here while we pay Richard Herman $244,000 per year and Joe White to remain the university earning $300,000/yr. I suspect we're paying them big dollars to look for new jobs and I suspect they enjoy pensions as well.
(UCLA students protesting in California)
What does a UofI undergraduate tuition pay for?
Do the UofI student have to pony up more tuition to pay for research park buildings?
I think the Daily Illini should proactively look into the staggering cost and the certain-to-increase cost of tuition.
Why is it increasing so incredibly fast?
If my kid wants to get a finance degree, how does his tuition get allocated?
How much of the tax payer subsidy actually goes to education (when you can get the same thing or better at Parkland for 90% (signficantly) less, at least when it comes to general education)?
Does the undergraduate student wanting to get a finance degree have to pay significantly more to fund research efforts by the university?
It would so great if the DI called out the scumbags who author textbooks and change the versions every year so that the students cannot buy used textbooks. Seriously, is your great salary and gold plated benefits not good enough? Are you really going to snake an additional profit like that by screwing poor college kids? Is your version of Econ 101 so much different than any other professor's version of Econ 101?
I finally found a protest in California that I can support. Those kids need to remain committed to keeping costs contained in government.
But wait, speaking of Econ 101, a local economics professor posted a breakdown on this with important information (linked) that starts to address my questions from above. The university spends 39.5% on reasearch. The receive 15.3% from grants and contracts. The total UofI budget is $4.17B and that includes $517.9M in employee benefits.
Hold up. $517.9M/$4.17B = 12%. So the university pays 12% of the ENTIRE fiscal budget towards employee benefits. Is it just me, or does that seem sort of high? Generally, the cost of benefits should be approximately 30% of entire compensation. I'm very curious to learn the university payroll totals and why they do not provide this number in the pocket facts summary. I guess we could email them at infosource@uillinois.edu if anyone else is curious.
What will happen when the state runs out of money and fails to pay the University of Illinois 18.3% of their expected revenues? I know some people will try, but you can't blame this on George Bush.
Clearly, the only solution is more revenue.
"Clearly, the only solution is more revenue."---Wrong, the State of Illinois has to pay its bills, to the U of I and everyone else.
You will never pay for your kids to attend the U of I for freshman and sophomore years, opting for Parkland?
Wow. You are willing to cost your children's future for a few thousand extra dollars now?
You ask, what does the U of I provide that Parkland doesn't?
The question by itself shows a complete lack of understanding of what the U of I is all about.
In future, many companies will need middle managers, taught but not educated, and many will need leaders, highly educated, well rounded people.
Following your logic, why try and go to the U of I at all? Why not EIU, or WIU, or Nowhere State University? Why a top tier school when any old BS or BA is just as good?
If your child wants to be an elementary teacher or a social worker or an office manager, you are right. If your child wants to be an engineer or physicist or chemist, spend the money.
You get what you pay for. If you want a "Kia" education you can get it anywhere. If you want a "Lexus" education you have to pay for it.
I have one c
How are we going to give Herman and White those $200,000++ salaries unless we increase tuition. After all, they did take a paycut...
Correction. I am removing the 90% claim that is not accurate. I was initially comparing 15 hours at Parkland instead of 30 hours. Sorry.
"You get what you pay for. If you want a "Kia" education you can get it anywhere. If you want a "Lexus" education you have to pay for it."
I think you would have been more appropriate to say a Ferrari education considering how much it costs to attend the UofI. If I have money to burn, I'll send my kid to the UofI for the general education. I'm not big on burning money. For uber specific majors, I will concede there is a benefit.
The University of Illinois is #4 in accounting. Take your gen eds at Parkland and transfer over. During those intial two years, chances are good that my kid will change his mind about his planned major a few times.
I'm not too worried about my kids. I'm worried about the kids who are working to pay off student loan debt when they are expected to pay $16k (not included housing and living expenses). The expected costs of a year of college is $30/k year. Wow!
It makes no sense to me why someone is going to pay $120k+ for a psych degree.
"Wrong, the State of Illinois has to pay its bills, to the U of I and everyone else."
How do you suppose they are going to do that without money? The spent it all already and we're going to run out soon. The UofI is going to run out soon. What happens then? We can't just pay our bills with IOUs. Or maybe we can?
EIU offers a better undergraduate education in many fields (engineering is an exception) than UIUC. It's a lot cheaper too.
Heh--a friend of mine did two years at a community college and transferred to UI for his last two years. In less than 10 years he was a director at a Fortune 500 company. It is the smart thing to do, provided you can get excellent grades at the community college--save 20 grand or more and probably get a more effective education.
The reason tuition is skyrocketing in CA (and soon will here), is that the state cannot fund the state appropriation much any more. Loss in the state appropriation to the schools directly results in massive tuition increases. The appropriations will continue to dwindle towards zero--state tax reciepts are down 20%-30% YoY and appropriations to higher education are traditionally one of the first things to get the axe.
This will continue, for a while, until the academic community totally bankrupts what's left of the middle class by forcing them into massive amounts of debt to get a post-secondary education and pay outrageous salaries and benefits to schools that aren't doing a very good job of preparing kids for a work world that is drastically different than even a decade ago.
Academics are worse than bankers in this regard--student loan debt is not dischargable in a personal bankruptcy and will follow you for the rest of your life. Universities no longer give people a door into a strong US middle class--they instead suck it dry by creating armies of debt slaves that now have little hope of finding good paying jobs when they graduate. It's a ponzi scheme, one of the biggest there is.
"How do you suppose they are going to do that without money? " Simple take responsibility for your actions, in this care the State of Illinois.
If indeed lack of funds, not fat state pensions, overspending or corruption, is the problem, the legislature and the governor are paid to address it. Illinoi voters for years have been so quick to let off them shed all responsibilities or political party point as they collect their pay, get re-elected, create more state government and retire with hugh pensions for our grand children to fund.
I'm a Parkland grad who transferred to the UI to finish my undergrad education, then went on to grad school at UI. While I'll agree that you can save some bucks at Parkland, the level of competition and intellectual stimulation is clearly less than what you'd experience in the first two years at UIUC. Parkland is a quality community college program, but there is really no comparison to what you have access to at a major research university's comparable freshman and sophomore years.
In my case, I had a wealth of life experience that compensated for what I didn't get at Parkland. If you're the average kid straight out of high school, you are simply not going to be able to replace that. The waters run pretty deep in the last two years of undergrad work, esepcially if your goal is to go on to a PhD grad school program directly after your BA.
You get what you pay for. If you want a "Kia" education you can get it anywhere. If you want a "Lexus" education you have to pay for it.
Nah - it's more like a Buick compared to a Chevy. Extra trim.
The total UofI budget is $4.17B and that includes $517.9M in employee benefits.
Hold up. $517.9M/$4.17B = 12%.
The article you reference doesn't say anything about benefits.
Let’s start with the retirement you say is so expensive for the U of I and the state. It is actually cheaper then most businesses that give their employees a 401k the only reason for the Debt is that the State have refused to pay their portion of the benefit.
To B for Business @ 5:45 A and other posters on this thread--yes, more money is necessary, but so is a deep analysis of how the UIUC monies are being spent. There is a great deal of waste; gratuitous spending to "keep" faculty--cost of doing business; misplaced priorities; payoffs--the recent two that have been in the N-G; etc. A previous poster suggested that this might be an excellent investigative story for the DI. Maybe a joint venture between the DI, N-G, and journalism would yield Pulitzer level reporting. I am certain that many readers and posters of IP can list case studies falling within the criteria mentioned. All of this adds up.
Pattsi Petrie
There's some data available at http://www.dmi.illinois.edu/cp/ (for the Urbana campus only.) It looks like of the $693 million in combined state appropriations and tuition, about 75% is spent on salaries.
A lot of the classes at Parkland are also taught by grad students from U of I who need extra money. Also, not all grad students are bad teachers.
I would send a kid to Parkland, or EIU, or SIU for the first two years. Smaller class sizes + increased likelihood of having a professor instead of a TA = better educational experience.
After those two years -- I'm following the "quality of BA/BS" argument here -- I'd send the kid to some ostentatious private school. Whether the education is better, I couldn't say. But the old boy networks very much increase a grad's future opportunities.
Moëtry in the Potion
Do schools like Northwestern or U of C admit many transfer students from EIU or Parkland?
The only significant downsides to the community college transfer to the bigger name universities are pretty tame. If you plan ahead for the school(s) you plan to transfer to you can make sure you take classes they are looking for and don't waste too much time on courses that they consider inadequate that you'll have to take there anyways. The other big issue comes down to student motivation to go the extra mile with the far less difficult community college course work. If you just limp towards an easy "A" in pre-requisite coursework one could easily find themselves unprepared for some of the more competitive coursework later. For engineering coursework I saw a lot of community college transfers crash and burn when faced with cut throat competition. Other fields may not be quite as psychotic about it, but I imagine lacking a strong foundation in other fields will still have similar consequences when hitting the weed-out classes.
I only had one teacher at U of I who had any significant difficulty with English... but he was a research professor from Russia and it turned out his English was much improved in office hours when not on the spot in front of a class. Otherwise all of the TAs, even those who obviously spoke English as a second language, did so quite well. Never had much of an issue there.
Whether or not it's worth it compared to other universities comes down to what field you're going into. For engineering students who want an edge in many big engineering hiring companies... it's hard to beat UofI for the in-state tuition costs. You do well there and you're pretty well set for internships and careers at all sorts of great companies. Depending on your field/goals though UofI is overkill and not worth all the extra debt.
--
Glock21 Op/Ed
Students dropped banners at UIUC right before break to demonstrate their solidarity with the UC protests-
http://www.ucimc.org/content/uc-solidarity-banner-drop
No company will ever look at the first 15 or 30 or 60 hours a student did at a community college. They will only look at where your bachelor's degree came from. More than likley, they won't even look at a transcript. There's nothing wrong with going to Parkland first, then U of I, in fact, it makes good financial sense. This is a trend that is only going to increase, at a massive rate in the very near future. The university I work at has already started planning for the increase in transfer students that is going to come from sky rocketing tuition. I do agree with you on the Engineering/Science part though, you should definitely not start out at Parkland, or any community college if that's your major. I was an advisor at U of I for several years, most students who transferred into those types of majors, did not succeed.
I'm on the fence here. While I thought the comment about "who speaks English" to be wildly ignorant of the process it takes to become a TA, I did enjoy my time at Parkland more than my time taking Gen Eds at UIUC. I think the comment on how the best solution is to demand more transparency on existing spending at the U of I to be the most on point. We may need more money, but it's not useful to continue to pour through the hole in the bucket.
" I was an advisor at U of I for several years, most students who transferred into those types of majors, did not succeed."
You sound like my old U of I advisor when I transfered in from Blackhawk College in Civil Engineering. If so, do you recall telling me I would probably not graduate and later not signing my graduation form when I did. Yes, I suffered through not only graduate students but professors whose English skills were worse than a 2-year olds, focused totally on either their thesis work or their research. Well I am here to tell you I made it, worked 30 years in the enginerring, a couple of patents, ownership in a multi-national company, retired public office holder, etc, etc. No I am not the exception, a Parkland student we hired part time some years ago is getting ready to defend a thesis in Analytic Chemistry at the U of I.
So your advise against starting our at Parkland or any community college if your major is Engineering/Science is totally wrong and ill advised. We hire 70% Engineering and Science people, most of whom started out at a community or city college and all BS, some even a MS. Maybe you should review how the freshman/sophomore classes are taught for those entering these fields. I am pleased you are no longer an advisor at the U of I.
Speaking English can be important.
Anthropocentrism, xenophobia etc. may be worrisome problems -- but let's not become so politically correct/relativistic that we don't wonder aloud how much we'd have learned if we spoke the same language as our TA.
Moëtry in the Potion
"Do schools like Northwestern or U of C admit many transfer students from EIU or Parkland?"
Yes. It's amazing what a 4.0 GPA and the promise of $40,000 can accomplish. (If your GPA is only 3.0, claim to be a paraplegic Inuit lesbian. It will not hurt you.)
Moëtry in the Potion
"Well I am here to tell you I made it, worked 30 years in the enginerring, a couple of patents, ownership in a multi-national company, retired public office holder, etc, etc. No I am not the exception, a Parkland student we hired part time some years ago is getting ready to defend a thesis in Analytic Chemistry at the U of I. "
Good for you, I'm glad you did. Did you read what I said? I said most, certainly not all, you and the guy you hired are part of the few that do suceed - congratulations, you deserve it! I also should have clarified. When I said didn't succeed, I meant they didn't succeed in that major. Many times, they would switch to a different major and graduate.
I'm pleased I don't work there anymore as well, wouldn't enjoy being furloughed next year and would rather work at a school that actually cares about undergraduates. Teaching to classes of 400-900 people is not conducive to learning. Having advisors who are responsible for over 800 undergrads, doesn't work. The U of I is better than that, at least they should be.
"The article you reference doesn't say anything about benefits.
Let’s start with the retirement you say is so expensive for the U of I and the state. It is actually cheaper then most businesses that give their employees a 401k the only reason for the Debt is that the State have refused to pay their portion of the benefit."
On the Professor's linkd page, there is a link to pocket facts: http://www.uillinois.edu/our/publications/pdfs/PocketFacts09.pdf#page=14
Very simply, does the total amount of benefits that a university employee receives = +/- 30% of the cost of employment? The money management skills of the dems in springfield does not change the importance of this question. Possibly a blessing in disguise, the dems may have finally helped us get spending under control.
"To B for Business @ 5:45 A and other posters on this thread--yes, more money is necessary, but so is a deep analysis of how the UIUC monies are being spent. There is a great deal of waste; gratuitous spending to "keep" faculty--cost of doing business; misplaced priorities; payoffs--the recent two that have been in the N-G; etc."
Has there been any initiative to control spending before it looked like the university would run out of money. They have all these progressive green initatives, but do they have common sense initiatives to put more focus in the classroom and to make education more affordable?
I don't want to pay any more bills until somebody can answer that question.
Speaking English can be important. Anthropocentrism, xenophobia etc. may be worrisome problems -- but let's not become so politically correct/relativistic that we don't wonder aloud how much we'd have learned if we spoke the same language as our TA. I have never seen or heard of a single class that was not a foreign language class that was taught in a language other than English. I have never seen or heard of a TA who could not speak extremely communicative English. What I have heard of--frequently--is people complain about TAs with heavy accents. Empathizing with, and understanding fluent English speakers with different accents is a vital skill and one that I'm glad the University helps develop. The idea that having an accent equals not being able to speak English or some sort of intelligence deficiency is what I refer to as "ignorance" in the earlier post, and something I would question the university on if it didn't confront in some way.
I believe you are correct Anonymous 6:49, all classes other than language are taught in English at the U of I. Now I was only at the U of I for my junior and senior years receiving a BS in CE. I had one 300 level structural engineering class taught by a professor in Engineering Hall whose asian accent was so bad we had him print, not write, key words during his lecture. His math formulas could go from left to right, right to left or up or down. When he put these on the board we would take pictures, go to 1-hour photo after class for devleoping/copies (predigital). While the class was not taught in a foreign language, it was taught with the professor only using small key English words, like yes, no, see, you and phrases like look here, no-no, yes-yes.
In those two years, I switch sections in at least one class every semester due to a TA's inability to communicate in English. None, I repeat none of these TA's would have been judged 'fluent' in the English language except possibly by placement officials from their native country. I once took a disbelieving Associate Professor, who I worked for, to a 300 level advanced strength of material class taught by a 'Persian'. He was shocked at his poor English skills, suggesting I switch sections immediately.
None of these TA's and certainly not the professor were 'ignorant'. In fact most if not all had great knowledge in their field. However none could communicate well enough to teach without hugh efforts, meaning great amounts of time by each of the students assigned to them. Taking a minimum of 18 credit hours/semester in Engineering did not afford me the luxury of sticking with heavily accented, minimal English speaking skilled teachers nor the time to learn Arabic, Xiang, Punjabi or whatever the native language was of the next TA or professor. I worked on those non-English languages after college as necessary.
"When people are educated, everybody wins. Crime goes down, standards of living go up. The Land Grant University System was meant to increase access to higher education. The federal government funded universities in each state so even the children of farmers on the frontier and factory workers in the cities would have access to a broad and practical schooling. As government funding is cut for higher education, universities take on a more corporate role, and students bear more of the burden. When I was an undergrad, my tuition was a little over $600 a semester. I was an English major, and failed my only math class, so I don’t know how to adjust that for inflation, but I do know that by saving carefully and working hard, a student could earn enough in the summer to fund the year’s tuition, even buy books. This is no longer realistic, perhaps not even possible. I think my students are barking up the wrong tree. I think my students deserve to be taught by people who are treated like professionals—not teachers who have to worry about making ends meet, about health care, about whether they can afford to come back next year. I think my students should be asking the university administration to remember its land grant mission."
Letter From Birdland
Three Score and Ten Plus One
Keith Hays
As a juxtaposition to the posting by Keith Hays @ 9:07 A is the editorial in today's N-G walking both sides of the issue of the GEO walkout and concluding that it was a waste of time to walkout.
Pattsi Petrie
I wonder why a strike was needed if it’s true that the U of I Administration would protect the Graduate Student Tuition waivers as the email sent to the U of I employees stated. Couldn't they of just put the waivers in the GEO contract and there would have been no need for a Strike?
I think the number of there members who voted to go on strike and the number of people as the News Gazette said "provoked considerable sound and fury" is a better indicator of how much the students were involved, rather then the number of ratification votes which was a for gone conclusion.
Foreign graduate students at U of I have to pass the "SPEAK test" before they can get TA positions. I know this, because friends of mine in the past have not passed it, and so only were able to get grader positions (or of course RA positions). The test is administered locally. (And yes, I agree those friends of mine should not be TAs, wouldn't inflict them on anyone!)
I have never heard of a place where equations went any direction other than left to right, horizontally. I'd be interested to know where that person is from, because even in books that are written vertically, the equations go exactly as they do "in English" (note: math isn't in any country's language, it's symbols that everyone agrees on, you just read them differently). If the text is vertical, sometimes that means you flip the book 90 degrees clockwise to read the line horizontally. FAR more often, the entire book is just set horizontally, just like web pages in those languages are. My math books were all horizontally typeset.
Accents can certainly be an issue. But often there simply aren't enough English-from-birth graduate students in the field to provide the TA force. One might wonder why that is.
FWIW in my own university days (in the US) I remember having a professor who mumbled terribly, swallowed the ends of all his words, and had such a soft voice it was hard to tell just what he was saying. He was Japanese though, so I always assumed it was some English problems, until I met him separately at a community picnic where everyone was speaking Japanese only and realized... no, it wasn't restricted to any one language, he was just as incomprehensible in Japanese too... :D
But then, being unable to teach effectively isn't always about language, either, even if it seems the first easy target. It's fashionable to bag on schools of education these days but some of the stuff taught there is actually helpful. Being able to explain something you know like the back of your hand well to someone else is a skill in itself.
All this talk is only strengthening my resolve to send my kids to community college for two years. I consistently hear reports that the teacher/professors are better at teaching general education requirements.
Personally, I have taken courses at both types of institutions and fee strongly from my own experience that the professors at community college are focused on teaching and do a much better job of it.
English? In my experience, I had a calculus teacher (or was the pre-calc math?) who could not communicate. OMG, it was so bad, I was offended that someone else was paying for my tuition.