Open Thread (12/29/2009)

Tuesday, December 29, 2009.

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The system did work- Homeland Secretary on Sunday.

So did the the lifeboats and the wireless when the Titanic sunk. To expect the passengers to be thwarting attacks on aircraft is a bit much, especially since I pay nearly 15.00 per flight just for FAA mandated security upgrades.

Local Voter's picture

It appears the 'communication problem' George W said he would fix across security systems, was the root cause of this security breach.  Security in this country is a putrid bueaurocratic pile protected by politicians, lobbists & agencies each hovering over their 'rice' bowls with the 'W' fix just adding another bowl filled with federal employees.  Since air travel involves other nations, many of whom have bigger piles than us, improvements in communications, let alone practice, will take decades to improve, if ever.

Maybe someone on this blog knows if security in the Amsterdam airport is under the control of the US government. I don't know how much, if any, of that is actually under our control.

A notable exception to that would be allowing a passenger to board an international flight destined for the US without a valid passport. I inadvertently  tried a variation on this once with not so good results. The passports are checked twice with the last check being right before you get on the aircraft and that check being performed by airline staff. Other flags like paying in cash for a ticket, like buying a one way ticket and being on a list of people barred from entry in other countries (like the UK) are reviewed by whom?

"Local Voter" seems to feel this is a "W" problem. Makes one wonder if 911 was a Clinton problem...

Keith_Hays's picture

Since December 22, 2001 when Richard Reid, a/k/a The Shoe Bomber failed to detonate the PETN hidden in his shoe aboard American Flight 63 from Paris to Miami air travelers passing through airport checkpoints have been asked to remove their shoes so that the footwear can be inspected for explosives. No visual inspection can detect the presence of PETN hidden in a shoe, yet travelers are still subjected to that indignity. On December 25, 2009 Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab failed to bring down Northwest flight 253 from Amsterdam to Detroit when the packet of 80 grams of PETN concealed in his underwear failed to explode. Will the TSA now request that air travelers remove their underwear for inspection following the Crotch Bomber's attempt?

The question is not wholly facetious. Both attempts came at a time of peak air travel. Both were foiled in part by alert air crews and passengers but were unsuccessful because the bombs did not perform as expected. The Shoe Bomb and now the Crotch Bomb incidents demonstrate that no system of air travel security can be relied on to be 100% effective. Because we have become so reliant on international air travel a major mission of the TSA has been to provide to the traveler a sense of security, that the government is doing something while the reality is that the system is full of holes.

The complaint that a person identified as a potential terrorist was on a Watch List but not included in a No Fly list is legitimate and TSA and other law enforcement agencies need to evaluate how that occurred. Reliance on such rosters is more about the illusion of secure air travel than a practical solution to foiling terrorists. Had the Crotch Bomber's family not been prominent and concerned about their son's evident radicalization Abdulmutallab would not have appeared on the Watch List at all. It is unrealistic to expect that any system of preflight screening would be able to assess the entire Earth's population for risk.

The point is that we cannot construct a wholly secure system of air travel unless we ban all passengers except those who have passed a rigorous pre-flight background investigation - and even then we can expect that a hole in the system will exist and be exploited. We have to accept some risk of another and successful attack if we are to continue to rely on air travel and the airline industry. How much risk are we willing to accept? How much government delving into our personal lives are we willing to accept as the price of air travel security? Is the solution mandated strip searches to resolve anomalies after full body scans of every passenger? . What indignities in the airport check points are you willing to accept?

Three Score and Ten Plus One

Keith Hays

Local Voter's picture

FO says "Local Voter" seems to feel this is a "W" problem.--- I tried to make two points about "W's" failed approach to security.  First, "W" said he would fix the communication problems across emergency/safety agencies that manifested themselves so blantantly on 9/11 and since.  Second, he created the "TSA" governmental agency, putting tens of thousands on the federal payroll, to assure secure air travel.  

Keith-

You might want to recheck that. El Al, the National airline of Isreal has NEVER been hijacked or had a shoe bomber on it. In fact, if memory serves, they refused to let Richard Reid on the plane. They then went to a US airline who let him on the plane.

Keith_Hays's picture

You may want to check your memory:

"SHOE BOMBER" TOOK "DUMMY RUN" FLIGHT TO ISRAEL

Shoe bomb suspect took 'dummy run' flight to Israel
By Alan Philps in Jerusalem, Sandra Laville and Sarah Womack
The Daily Telegraph
December 28, 2001

"Richard Reid, the British man accused of trying to blow up an American Airlines flight with explosives in his shoes, earlier flew to Israel aboard El Al in what security services suspect was a dry run for his planned attack...."

And this:

Reid Scouted Airport Security
On July 12, 2001, Reid flew into Tel Aviv, Israel on El Al Airlines. In the following
weeks, Reid traveled within Israel and also visited Egypt, Turkey, and Pakistan. The U.S.
government’s sentencing memorandum in Reid’s case states, “During his trip, Reid
focused on El Al security at the airports and aboard his flight. He later claimed that the
idea of placing explosives in his shoes came from his observations of El Al security, and
the fact that security personnel did not check the insides of his shoes.”38
In a report on his travels, later found on Al-Qaida number two Ayman al-
Zawahiri’s computer in Afghanistan, Reid documented ten questions El Al security asked
him, including, “why do you want to go to Israel?.” 39 El Al spokesman Nachman Klieman
reported that “the red light went off immediately because of the way he answered
questions.”40

When Reid was finally allowed to board the plan to Tel Aviv, he was seated close
to an armed air marshal,41 and, according to Kleiman, “remained under scrutiny the
whole way.”42 Documenting the scene on the plane, Reid’s report established that
“generally flight attendants are security and there are [security] people sitting among the
passengers.”

http://nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/shoebombplot.pdf

Three Score and Ten Plus One

Keith Hays

He didnt blow up an El Al flight did he? Nope, their security worked.

akibare's picture

Yes, their security worked.  But (1) he wasn't planning to blow up the flight that time anyway so he didn't HAVE the explosives in his shoes for them to attempt detecting, and (2) people tend to have an idea that "well, El Al profiles people, we need to do that!" with some very simplistic idea that somehow El Al just racially profiles it up to the hilt, which they don't.  Still, in my experience at least on the internet, when people bring up El Al, that's what they're suggesting - see, the US is too PC, we need to just get all harsh on the People of Swarth.

 

Also El Al has far less traffic than major US hubs.  Saying "just do what El Al does" isn't a magic solution, even if you actually know what El Al is doing (and it's not just "grill all the Arab looking people only").  They ask EVERYONE questions, yes, even white haired grandma and people with long sidecurls.

 

 

"What indignities in the airport check points are you willing to accept?"

Any and all that will keep that plane in the air without exploding. You can take my shoes, sniff me, take a picture of my junk, but just get me there without some idiot taking me out by blowing a hole in my plane. That's just the way I roll. I would concede to allowing people who don't want the indignities to fly designated flights that don't require as much security, but at least give me the option of every protection available.

Man charged with firing cop's gun in Joliet library
December 29, 2009 5:59 PM | No Comments | UPDATED STORY
Three Joliet police officers took the day off today following Monday's arrest of a 23-year-old man who managed to fire a round from an officer's holstered sidearm during a struggle in the the city's library downtown.

Deputy Chief Mike Trafton said no one was injured during the arrest of Rondale L. Ellis, of the 500 block of Hobbs Avenue. He estimated 200 people -- half of them children -- were present at the time

Ellis was charged today with aggravated discharge of a firearm, being an armed habitual criminal, three counts of aggravated battery to a police officer, disarming a police officer and resisting a police officer.

Three officers, responding to a CrimeStoppers tip, went to the library at 150 N. Ottawa St. at 1:50 p.m. Monday to serve three warrants to Ellis, who was on the library's second floor, Trafton said.

Police encountered Ellis in a stairwell between the second and first floors, Trafton said. While resisting, Ellis allegedly put his hand on a 20-year police veteran's 9 mm weapon and pulled the trigger, firing one round. The projectile tore through the officer's trouser, narrowly missing his leg, and hit a ceramic wall, Trafton said.

Dozens of people witnessed the altercation, Trafton said.

Ellis was initially placed in a squad, but he kicked out the window and frame, Trafton said. Police transferred him to a different unit before taking him to the Will County Adult Detention Facility, he said.

No one was seriously injured, Trafton said, although the officers were experiencing some soreness today.

"I'm very proud of the job they did restraining him in a very difficult situation," Trafton said. "They took care of themselves and everyone else in the library."

Trafton said he didn't know why Ellis was at the library.

Ellis' criminal record includes being found guilty in 2005 of aggravated battery to an Illinois Department of Corrections officer in 2003, and pleading guilty in 2007 to aggravated battery of a Will County sheriff's deputy in 2006. He was given a suspended 24-month sentence for the first conviction and sentenced to three years in prison, with credit for 149 days served in jail, for the second.

--Dennis Sullivan

So Keith-- how about some Monday morning quarterbacking on this one.....................

Arvid's picture

Any and all that will keep that plane in the air without exploding. You can take my shoes, sniff me, take a picture of my junk, but just get me there without some idiot taking me out by blowing a hole in my plane. That's just the way I roll. I would concede to allowing people who don't want the indignities to fly designated flights that don't require as much security, but at least give me the option of every protection available.

Do you request as much security and screening before you ever get onto the Interstate?  Because you've got a much larger chance of dying there than you do in a terrorist attack on a plane.  On the order of 16.5 million to one.  The odds of dying while driving to the airport are significantly worse.

It's not just the indignaties, it's how effective these methods are at keeping us "safe from terrorists", and the short answer is that they're not doing much of anything.  But if having your junk scanned before you hop on a plane gives you a warm, fuzzy feeling of "safety", then I expect that you'll be demanding much more rigorous safety checks at each entrance to the Interestate Highway System.

-----
This last post conclusively proves that Arvid is in fact Laurel Prussing. Sad. - Anonymous on 2009-06-22 @ 9:30am

9/11 was a Clinton problem. The US intel community knew as early as '95, when a terrorist cell in Manila was raided, that Al Qaida had plans to fly fuel laden planes into monuments in NYC. And yet, we did nothing and every time bin Laden was offered to Clinton, he refused.

And yet, we did nothing and every time bin Laden was offered to Clinton, he refused.

That's funny, because I remember Clinton going after bin Laden and being accused of "wagging the dog" to distract people from the Lewinsky scandal. I also remember the NIE report titled "Bin Laden determined to attack in the US" and it being utterly disregarded.

The US intel community also pretty much knew that there were no WMDs in Iraq. That's the very reason Rumsfeld had to set up a separate and parallel intellgence structure inside the Pentagon and distinct from the CIA.

Keith_Hays's picture

So Keith-- how about some Monday morning quarterbacking on this one.....................

Sounds to me like three very professional police officers earned their well deserved day off on Monday.

One has to wonder about the prosecutor who bargained the 2007 plea for a 3 year sentence.

Three Score and Ten Plus One

Keith Hays

Remember that time at Tora Bora when Bill Clinton let Bin Ladin slip through our hands because his Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld wanted to make some silly self-glorifying point about the agile armies of the future - and the GOP was eating the Rumsfeld s*** up and begging for more, even as DoD was trying to cover up just how close they'd come to bagging Bin Ladin?

Sorry, I guess that wasn't Clinton, was it.

I saw a while ago that the Washington Post was having a tourney to see who the most influential man of the decade was. The final was between some fuzzy terrorist leader quivering in caves on the Afghan/Pakistan border and the incompetent, economy-destroying, party-destroying US President who let him git away. What a decade.

redstatewannabe's picture

Remember that time...

Nope, I don't remember that at all.